090514ED

Page 8110

1 poor quality so it's difficult to read the text in Croatian. The book

2 has been translated from cover to cover, and it is to be found in the

3 binder called "Aid of the Republic of Croatia to the Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina."

5 THE INTERPRETER: So it's not "Assistants to," interpreter's

6 correction, but "Aid of."

7 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] And with your permission, I'd like

8 to hand the book over, through the usher, to General Praljak.

9 Examination by Ms. Pinter: [Continued]

10 Q. General, 3D02633 is the document number. It is a book called

11 "Aid of the Republic of Croatia to the Muslim and Bosniak People in the

12 BH Army," in the course of 1991 until 1995. It says that the author is

13 Slobodan Praljak.

14 What can you tell the Court about how this book came into being,

15 and its contents, in general terms?

16 A. This book is a collection of documents setting out the facts

17 about all the political and military leadership's actions during the

18 aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina, how they assisted -- how the Croatian

19 leadership assisted Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, how it assisted

20 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Muslim and Bosniak people.

21 In preparing for this trial, we collected documents together, and

22 they were gathered and take up 92 binders, as you know. They were

23 brought to The Hague, and I think that the CD-ROMs were handed over to

24 the OTP and the Tribunal. And of this vast amount of material, which as

25 I say takes up as many as 92 binders, we selected just the most

Page 8111

1 characteristic documents. So these are the facts which will help us to

2 arrive at the truth in this case.

3 Q. And can you tell us what the sources of these documents were?

4 A. Yes. The source was the archives, the Croatian State Archive,

5 the archive of the Croatian Army, and some of the documents I received

6 from -- or we received from, rather, some Muslims who took part in these

7 activities on the territory of the Republic of Croatia; that is to say,

8 those who were in the centres for training, unit training centres, or

9 logistic support centres for the Main Staff of the BH Army, and so on and

10 so forth.

11 Q. Was there any cooperation with the Office for Cooperation with

12 The Hague Tribunal?

13 A. Yes, of course, yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, I think that we can take this document by

15 document.

16 I seem to be having a problem with the microphone, so I have to

17 adjust my position.

18 But I'd like to start off with page 3D -- I'm going to read out

19 the pages of the book for the Croatian and English versions so that we

20 can all follow. 3D32-1023 is the first one. That's right, that's the

21 page. And this is when the humanitarian crisis in 1992 reached a peak.

22 We discussed that yesterday, and I thought you could tell us something

23 about this map.

24 Now, on e-court, please. May it be placed on e-court for the

25 others? It's much easier to see and read.

Page 8112

1 A. So this is the information that other people have testified about

2 here, too, but it says that at the peak of the humanitarian crisis in

3 December 1992, there were 402.768 refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina in

4 Croatia and 260.000 displaced persons, and the number never dropped below

5 195.000 refugees and 183.000 displaced persons.

6 Q. Just a moment, please. Judge Trechsel has a question.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I think it is - I'm speaking for the Bench - we

8 are not quite aware of what we should be looking at or could be looking

9 at. What we have on e-court is, on the left side, a map. Now I see, on

10 the right side, we have something else, and perhaps we can also be told

11 what page number it is. But the map we do not have in our file, and it

12 is also in Croatian, and we have no translation either. So it is

13 probably not, itself, very useful.

14 And I think what we now have is page 6. And having found out, I

15 apologise for the interruption. Thank you.

16 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Yes, that's precisely what I wanted

17 to say. Each map has been translated, but it's not on the map, it's on a

18 piece of paper and text beside the map. But I will give the English page

19 numbers in future, so I hope there won't be any problem in finding your

20 way.

21 Q. Now, General, as you have the original book, without the e-court

22 page numbers, I suggest that you leaf through the book, and I'll give the

23 page numbers.

24 A. I am referring to how many from the area -- well, we're dealing

25 with the end of 1992. And the Serbs -- I'm saying what territory the

Page 8113

1 Serbs took control of and how many people they expelled. 15.000 to

2 20.000 Muslims were expelled from Republika Srpska and came to Zenica.

3 The same amount came to Travnik, Muslims, that is, 15.000 to 20.000.

4 There were about 20.000 expelled Muslims in Bugojno, for example. With

5 the fall of Jajce, about 15.000 Croats were displaced and expelled and

6 about 12.000 Muslims, and so on and so forth. And they scattered, most

7 people that went to Croatia. But most of the population remained in the

8 Lasva Valley, Uskoplje, Bugojno, or rather Gornji Vakuf and that

9 General area, which of course changed the ethnic structure, and the

10 consequences of that is something that I have already spoken at length

11 about. And I think that Ms. Thatcher had a lot to say about that.

12 Q. Now, General, would you take a look at the chapter entitled

13 "Croatian Assistance to the BH Army," and it is 2092, the document, and

14 in English it's 3D38 --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel kindly slow down when quoting

16 numbers. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Pinter, the interpreters

18 are telling us that they do not have the text, so that when you read

19 quickly, it's a really huge problem for them. Do endeavour to slow down,

20 please.

21 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

22 interpreters have texts of all these documents. I have to say that. Our

23 case manager has handed them over. But I will slow down.

24 So in English, the page is 3D38-0010. The Croatian page is

25 3D32-1025.

Page 8114

1 Q. General, now "Help in Armament to the BH Army" is this chapter.

2 And would you tell the Court what the most important documents there are

3 that you'd like to point out and focus on and which say how much Croatia

4 helped in arming the BH Army? But I'd like to remind you that we've

5 heard quite a lot about that in the proceedings so far.

6 A. Now, the total -- well, the quantified data, we have

7 801 documents, with 3.820 military articles continuously sent to the

8 BH Army, or items, and we have a smaller number of issue documents.

9 Q. Just a moment, General. The general is referring to 3D38-0012,

10 or in English -- that's the English. In Croatian, it is 3D32-1027.

11 A. The greatest assistance went by air towards Bihac Airport,

12 Coralici and the 5th Corps of the BH Army. That was an air drop. And

13 while possible, they flew to Sarajevo, but then afterwards different

14 avenues were pursued. The planes would land at Zagreb Airport,

15 Pula Airport, and Brcko Airport.

16 Q. The next page is 3D38-0013 of the English and 3D32-1028 of the

17 Croatian. And what does that relate to?

18 A. It relates to the transport of military equipment and weapons

19 from Pula to Coralic by plan, from Zagreb to Coralic, and they flew

20 towards Zenica for as long as they could, and then from Zenica it was

21 taken to Gorazde. And that was driven by the BH Army towards Srebrenica

22 and Gorazde, because BH Army helicopters were procured via Croatia, the

23 pilots were trained there, and there were some unfortunate incidents. So

24 a helicopter crashed once at Pleso Airport because it was overloaded and

25 couldn't take the heavy load of weapons, and there was a big explosion.

Page 8115

1 Q. The next map relates to a transport by land, and it is 3D38-0014

2 or 3D32-1027.

3 THE INTERPRETER: A little slower, please, with the numbers.

4 Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the main route taking weapons

6 to the BH Army, Split, and then in different ways crossing -- by Imotski,

7 there was a crossing point towards Tomislavgrad, which is not on the map,

8 and then it went by via Rumboci, Rama, Gornji Vakuf, Bugojno, towards --

9 well, there were two ways. One went directly to the Main Logistics

10 Centre of the BH Army in Visoko, and a lot went directly to the

11 3rd Corps, to the various brigades, and so on and so forth. And a large

12 number of people were involved in all this, and everybody fended for

13 themselves, did what they could with respect to the convoys, except for

14 the main portion that went directly to the Logistics Base at Visoko. And

15 Mr. Rasim Delic, who was later the chief of the Main Staff of the

16 BH Army, compiled a report as to what they had received, and we have

17 that. And three or four times as much went directly to Sarajevo,

18 Gorazde, or Mostar through various channels.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, please. Excuse me, please. I must

20 confess that I'm a bit lost -- not lost in translation, lost in detail

21 this time. I absolutely accept, although it is not contested, and we've

22 heard plenty of evidence about it, that you want to show some more about

23 how Croatia assisted the Muslims, to put it in one word. I do not

24 understand why you go into details such as the roads taken or what was

25 transported by helicopter and what was transported by plane. I simply

Page 8116

1 cannot see in what respect this is relevant, but perhaps you can explain

2 why you think that these details, even, are connected to the indictment.

3 Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the indictment,

5 Judge Trechsel, there are three points. First of all, the main charge is

6 that the political and military leadership of Croatia wanted to cut off a

7 part of Bosnia-Herzegovina and an exit to Croatia, the so-called

8 Banovina. And then it is necessary to stipulate that the air force

9 planes, helicopters, and so on did quite the opposite of what one would

10 expect if that were the case. If you wanted to take something away from

11 a country and state, you don't supply their army in this way. And,

12 secondly, I indicated this route passing through Herceg-Bosna. So if the

13 Prosecutor claims that Herceg-Bosna wanted to separate and that it was --

14 and that there was parallel statehood and it wanted to secede and expel

15 the Muslims and destroy the state, then how come Herceg-Bosna allowed all

16 these convoys to go through throughout that time and to reach the

17 BH Army? And once that army, the BH Army in individual areas of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina had those weapons, they turned it towards the HVO.

19 I think that's very clear. So I it's clear why we need to look at all

20 this to see what the quantities were, how this was done, and what period

21 it covered.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, for the record, I must say it is, to me,

23 the details are not clear. If it is established, it's not even contested

24 that huge amounts of material went to the ABiH and to the Muslims in

25 general. Then it doesn't add anything to say that it was also

Page 8117

1 transported over their territory because, I mean, there's no other way.

2 But, I mean, I think it's hopeless to try to concentrate this to the

3 essential. And, I don't know, if my colleagues don't intervene, I will

4 leave it at that. But I must really say that I'm not convinced at all

5 that this enormous detail is necessary, not at all.

6 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, I will

7 answer.

8 We don't have any facts that have been established. We have the

9 indictment, which is as broad as it is. We have the indictment with the

10 scope which is huge. And we cannot afford not to call every little shred

11 of evidence to show what was done in those years, what the Republic of

12 Croatia did to show that there was no plan and that there was no idea

13 about the joint criminal enterprise that would include leadership of the

14 Republic of Croatia and the accused present in this courtroom; that this

15 claim cannot stand. But we did not receive from the Prosecution or,

16 indeed, from the Trial Chamber any decision to the effect, You don't have

17 to call any evidence, because we know that this is a fact. Then we

18 wouldn't be calling any evidence on it.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I just wanted to say, based on what I heard from

20 you, Judge Trechsel, it would appear that we -- that the Bench is taking

21 judicial notice that, in fact, the weapons did come; they came from

22 Croatia, and that -- and that's why the detail is not necessary. So if

23 we have -- if the Bench is united on that, that this is a fact that is

24 established, then perhaps we don't need to go into the details. You

25 know, so this would be considered an established fact, you know. So if

Page 8118

1 the Bench is taking judicial notice, then I believe -- you know, I would

2 concur with you in that aspect.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I think this might be a very useful

4 road to save time, but, of course, we want to hear what the Prosecution

5 has to say to this.

6 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour. And good morning,

7 Mr. President, and Your Honours.

8 I don't think there's really any dispute that arms supplies moved

9 into Bosnia and Herzegovina through Croatia. I think the dispute is

10 about where those supplies went ultimately, whether they went to supply

11 ABiH units, for example, fighting in the Tuzla region, who fought

12 together with the HVO throughout the conflict, the Bihac region in the

13 north-western part of the country of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I think

14 there's -- the divergence is the places where those arms were going, as

15 well as the time-frames involved, and the extent to which the arms

16 supplies dried up in the Herzegovina region or in those areas where the

17 HVO was in direct military conflict with the ABiH. And so I think we all

18 agree that arms went in. I think the dispute relates to where they were

19 going and the time-frames involved.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: And I thank the gentleman for that admission.

21 However, it must be borne in mind that you have routes that go through

22 various territories, you have a very fluid situation throughout this

23 period, things are changing. And of course weapons may be intended for

24 one particular area, they may -- some may arrive there, some may turn

25 back, and to suggest that somehow they were going to one particular

Page 8119

1 destination, they all went there and remained there and they were used

2 for the very purposes for which they were given, is another thing.

3 I think what the general wishes to do, the way I understand it,

4 is to show the complexity in the locations of where these routes were,

5 because then it becomes very important to show that the Croats knew at

6 some point that those weapons in all likelihood could very well be used

7 against them, but nonetheless, because they were committed to a Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina, they went along and provided those weapons. And I think

9 that those details are what the general is trying to demonstrate, the

10 routes and what have you, because in some places they could have easily

11 choked the route, in which case the weapons would not have gone through.

12 And, again, while the Prosecution -- I understand what they're

13 saying. They want to compartmentalise this as if Croats in the Posavina

14 somehow think differently than the Croats in Central Bosnia, or, you

15 know, they're willing to cooperate in one area, but fight in another.

16 We're saying it's a very fluid situation, the situation changes from

17 place to place, but nonetheless the Croatian government at this time,

18 with the assistance and insistence of the big powers, in particular the

19 United States, is allowing massive amounts of weapons to be coming in

20 from places like Iran and Saudi Arabia and what have you. So that's why

21 the general is trying to go through the detail.

22 But if we can all agree on all of this, then I'm certainly

23 willing to go along in saving time.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, I wonder whether it is possible to

25 stream-line the evidence in the -- or to the areas which are really

Page 8120

1 disputed; namely, I quote you, Mr. Karnavas, on what went -- was

2 destined, for instance, for Posavina and then when was detoured. And it

3 seems to me that to a large extent what is essential is perhaps more the

4 intention of the Croatian government than what actually happened,

5 although you correctly pointed out that at some times they must have had

6 some sort of dolus eventualis, that part of it would finally explode in

7 their own face.

8 If it were possible to stream-line the evidence so that we are

9 close to problem areas, then that would be useful, very useful for the

10 Chamber. The problem is that with the details we've heard now, we are in

11 the void. It's almost single grains of sand that should perhaps one day

12 give a mosaic picture, but it is not possible to place them at the

13 moment.

14 Mr. Stringer.

15 MR. STRINGER: If I could just make one suggestion -- I think --

16 that relates to what's being said. I'm going to avoid the invitation to

17 make a closing speech on this, because I think -- I mean, you know, we

18 can all argue about what it means, but that's for a later day.

19 Now, we have maps here, we have indications of material going to

20 various locations. What we don't have on any of this, for example, is

21 the time-frame, and the general hasn't spoken about that. And that's, in

22 the Prosecution point of view, an important issue. Maybe Ms. Pinter is

23 going to go there, and we're just anticipating the next line of

24 questions. But again it's, in our view, not very helpful at all if we

25 have these generalities without even any time-frame.

Page 8121

1 JUDGE PRANDLER: I'm sorry, Madam Nozica, but I would only like

2 to say the following: that, of course, we are ready to listen to the

3 witness and to the Defence, Mr. Praljak, and at the same time I also feel

4 that, for example, we have this very huge volume here only in B/C/S.

5 Now, frankly, I mean -- most of it in B/C/S, and somehow we are getting

6 lost in that abundance of material. So my point is also that probably

7 the Defence in the matter could help us to find really the most important

8 elements of the material in the documents and not to be lost everywhere.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: All in English. This is all in English.

10 JUDGE PRANDLER: Okay. So I thank Judge Trechsel.

11 So then, but in other words, I'm not really speaking about the

12 translation; I am speaking about the material which has been presented to

13 us and which means that at the same time during the last couple of

14 months, we have received a great number of other documents through other

15 witnesses, and like also the Stojic witness, et cetera -- witnesses. And

16 that is why I believe that it would be really a better way to choose if

17 the Praljak Defence would find the opportunity to help us to concentrate

18 on the major issues here and not to get lost in the details. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, I didn't take

20 the floor - it doesn't happen often - but I wanted to give the

21 opportunity for everyone to speak up in order to understand what

22 everyone's position was.

23 First and foremost, the Trial Chamber did not deliberate on this

24 issue of the judicial notice that might be made regarding weapons supply,

25 so each Judge takes the floor on his own behalf. And up until now, I

Page 8122

1 insist to say that so far the Trial Chamber has not deliberated on the

2 facts and on the liabilities that might be incurred by each and every

3 one. This is absolutely clear, which means that all the evidence

4 submitted by the Defence, as well as by the Prosecution, is evidence that

5 will be assessed according to two criteria: relevance and probative

6 value. And the final assessment can only be done at the very end of this

7 trial.

8 So as of now, I must say that, personally, I'm still in a

9 complete fog, in the dark, you know. And I'm moving cautiously, step by

10 step, to try to understand what happened, what the Prosecutor is alleging

11 in the indictment, and what Defence is actually saying also.

12 We've just had a debate here in this courtroom. Mr. Stringer

13 highlighted a couple of points in this -- a couple of points that are

14 very important to understand things. First, he said that we absolutely

15 needed dates to know when the weapons were supplied. We need the

16 time-frame. Did these deliveries go on throughout 1992 and 1993, up

17 until the first months of 1994? This is crucial to see if there was a

18 continuous supply of arms, of weapons. Then the second very important

19 point for everyone, we need to know whether these weapons were for the

20 entire ABiH, and the last document we just saw, where obviously the arms

21 are to be supplied to Visoko, we need to know whether after Visoko, all

22 these weapons would be redistributed throughout all ABiH units or, as the

23 Prosecutor seems to allege, whether these weapons were only to be

24 provided to a number of units in a number of places. These two items are

25 essential, and here I fully agree with the Prosecution; we absolutely

Page 8123

1 need to have a good time reference for all this, and we need to know

2 exactly how these weapons were dispatched. If we have a clear

3 understanding of this, I believe that we will be able to move forward.

4 Now, on the other hand, and here I share the point of view of my

5 fellow Judges, is it that important to really look at all the documents

6 regarding 1992? We've already seen a wealth of documents regarding this

7 year. That's a big problem. Maybe Mr. Praljak would better focus on

8 1993. As you know, 1993 is a year where we have very important dates;

9 January 5, for example, May 9, April 30th, the entire month of June.

10 There are some key moments in 1993, and then we have everything that

11 happened after June.

12 But let me tell you, Mr. Praljak, this whole drawing you made

13 with the trucks and the trucks routes, it's very interesting because we

14 see it originates from Zagreb or Rijeka, goes to Split, ends up in

15 Visoko, and we see that it has to go through Gornji Vakuf and Travnik

16 territories, which is fine. But did this happen in 1992? Did this

17 happen in 1993? Did this happen during the conflict, in the midst of it?

18 We absolutely have to have some information on this. So give us maybe

19 less details, but give us relevant details that have probative value.

20 While I was listening to everyone, I was looking at the binder,

21 the one in B/C/S, not the one in English but the one in B/C/S. And I saw

22 that in this binder we have a number of documents regarding August 1993.

23 That might be very important.

24 I think everybody gave their opinion, and now it's up to you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand that you

Page 8124

1 know the relevance, that it is up to you to decide on the relevance. But

2 the indictment that I've read, the joint criminal enterprise begins in

3 1991. The joint criminal enterprise in the heads begins in 1999

4 [as interpreted], according to the charges against us. If it begins in

5 1991, then these documents show that it doesn't, it doesn't begin in

6 1991, and it goes on into 1992. Well, we're not stupid, so these

7 documents tell us, no, in 1992 there was no such thing.

8 Furthermore, of course, if I were a judge deciding on this, I

9 would say, Okay, it's enough to show just a couple of documents to prove

10 that this did not exist. But on our part, there is something that is

11 called fear, fear of the indictment, of the charges. I have my own

12 opinion of it, but this fear of this indictment has made me go into too

13 many details, to be too broad. Of course, I cannot decide what is

14 relevant. It is up to you to do it. Well, I am afraid, not physically,

15 but I'm afraid of the prevailing logic here.

16 So I'm saying this: Throughout the war, arms were going to the

17 BH Army in Visoko, Your Honours. Visoko is the central logistics base of

18 the BH Army. And if the commander, chief of their Main Staff,

19 Sefer Halilovic, or Rasim Delic, decides to launch this Offensive 93, and

20 if I or we give them weapons to Visoko, who decides who will get those

21 weapons, which unit? They own the weapons. They can distribute them as

22 they see fit. And, of course, they send it to Jablanica, to Mostar,

23 because what will the BH Army use by way of weapons, what will it use to

24 fire upon the enemy in this Offensive 93 if it doesn't have any weapons?

25 And the only source of weapons for them is Croatia.

Page 8125

1 And this should be it, in terms of solving this problem

2 logically. But this logic is familiar to me. I know every detail of it,

3 but I don't know whether you can understand it, and that's why I went

4 into such detail. Of course, we will narrow it down, not only as regards

5 the weapons, but the overall aid. I will tell you what was going on, on

6 the plan of sports, humanitarian organisations, sports. Croatia was the

7 only way in which Bosnia and Herzegovina could survive, Croats and

8 Muslims alike.

9 Now let me say one more thing. Apart from the weapons in

10 Visoko -- and you will see a report from Rasim Delic about the quantity

11 of weapons that came into Croatia in 1993. And three or four times as

12 many weapons came in through other channels to individual units of

13 BH Army. For instance, we were sending some weapons to Sarajevo, and

14 people smuggled weapons in. And it is also the truth, when the BH Army

15 attacked the HVO, when the conflict broke out, we in Croatia, and I will

16 show you documents where it says, Let Praljak decide about some

17 training - I have it here - we started smuggling things around Zagreb, in

18 some parts controlled by the Croatian Army around Zagreb. There were

19 small devices where we put weapons into food. We took out food from the

20 containers and put in weapons, because I said already there was this huge

21 problem. I was fighting people who were attacking me, and at the same

22 time I knew -- I was aware of and I was approving the transfer of weapons

23 to the same army, and that was going on throughout the war.

24 As I said, after the conflict started, there were some problems,

25 but we were lying to ourselves; we were lying to our own fighters,

Page 8126

1 Your Honours. This is what I'm claiming. This is my evidence. I have

2 proof of that. I have a person who testified about that, a Muslim who

3 was working on it, and he will come here, and he will testify as to how

4 weapons were smuggled to BH Army.

5 And, Ms. Nika, could you please look at the establishment of

6 logistic centres of the BH Army in Croatia and get me the dates?

7 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Yes, but let me just respond to the

8 Trial Chamber that we started with the maps in order to give you an

9 overview, and it is not our intention to go through all those documents.

10 But, on the other hand, in order to be able to tender this book into

11 evidence, we have to deal with some documents and all the chapters in

12 order to be able to ask for it to be tendered into evidence, because it

13 is a compendium of documents put together in one place. And only when

14 you get all the documents in one place can you get the whole picture.

15 You cannot get the whole picture from disjointed pieces, to see the forms

16 and shapes that this aid took. And the Defence is trying to give you as

17 many facts as possible in order for your decision to be based on those

18 facts and in order for you to be -- to have all the data at your

19 disposal.

20 Q. Let us now look at -- well, I don't really have it. We should

21 look at yours.

22 A. Training centres, you mean?

23 Q. Well, look at the chapter on the training of BH pilots in

24 Croatia. I have a chapter here on unit establishment --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question for you,

Page 8127

1 Mr. Praljak.

2 You mentioned Halilovic, saying that Croatia, through the HVO,

3 supplied -- or that the HVO supplied weapons to the ABiH. Very well.

4 Unfortunately, here you know that each party has to submit its own

5 evidence. In a civil law system, we would have asked Mr. Halilovic

6 whether he actually received weapons and how he actually distributed the

7 weapons, and that would have saved everyone a lot of time.

8 Now, General Praljak, I'd like to know whether you envisaged to

9 actually call any of your adversaries as witnesses in your case, you

10 know, high-level adversaries, so that they could confirm what you're

11 actually saying, or do you believe that this is impossible to have these

12 people come and testify for you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, an associate did try to talk

14 to two people, but they refused, so that was impossible. But there is a

15 report. We have that. It's a regular report by Rasim Delic about what

16 was procured from Croatia just for the base in Visoko, and we're going to

17 show you that, show you the document. It's a very extensive document.

18 So it's his document, not mine. These aren't my documents. They're

19 documents mostly related to units organised by the Muslims, transported

20 by Muslims, where the truck-drivers were Muslims, so those are the

21 documents.

22 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] In this book, there are documents

23 which relate to a number of topics, and they are enumerated in the

24 contents list. Now, all the questions that Judge Antonetti raised with

25 respect to the period of time, the year, the critical dates as far as the

Page 8128

1 indictment is concerned and so on, we have documents on that. However,

2 I think we're going to lose our way if we keep skipping things.

3 We're going to skip 1992, but I think that, General, we should

4 take this in the order it is set out to look at the documents that are

5 essential in order to show what the situation was like with respect to

6 Croatian aid to Bosnia-Herzegovina, and thereby we would be refuting the

7 charges and allegations in the indictment which say that the politics in

8 Croatia and the HZ-HD had the intention to undertake a joint criminal

9 enterprise and the intention to cut off part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. So I'd like to ask you, General, that we go through the topics.

11 We're going to skip the years, skip 1992 and skip some documents, but go

12 through the material in general. So you don't have the page numbers; I

13 do. I will give the page numbers, and you can just tell us what the

14 documents are. Otherwise, we'll never get through it. We'll get

15 through --

16 A. Let's do March, when there was a conflict in Rama.

17 Q. Are we dealing with 1993 and Gojko Susak? The document on the

18 right, I believe, shows you that. I'll give the page number.

19 Now, the 1st of March, 1993, the Ministry Of Defence of the

20 Republic of Croatia. The letter is from Ante Jelavic, and it is a list

21 of the resources confiscated from the BH Army which were being sent to

22 the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia. It's 3D32-1035 or, rather -- well,

23 the number's the same, it's the same number. I don't seem to have the

24 number of the English page, but it is 3D38-0016, I think. And then we

25 can go on to the next document, and the date after that is the 6th of

Page 8129

1 March.

2 A. That's right, the 6th of March, where there are already conflicts

3 in Uskoplje and Rama and Novi Travnik, and I knew -- well, Your Honours,

4 if you read the document dated the 13th of January where I talked to the

5 high-ranking French delegation, I expressly say that the war will

6 continue and what the political options are -- of the individual sides

7 are. And from that, you can see that we were fully conscious of the fact

8 that the conflict would probably break out, and you'll see how much

9 effort we put in to prevent the conflict breaking out.

10 But, anyway, here on the 6th of March, a vast quantity of weapons

11 were being sent, and you've already mentioned this 6th of March document.

12 Q. 3D38-0024 is the number?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. 3D32-1039?

15 A. We --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down and speak

17 one at a time and state the -- read the numbers slowly. Thank you.

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we're lost with the numbers over

19 here. We're just moving too fast, and we're not able to keep up. We're

20 trying to take notes of which documents we might object to or not object

21 to, and it's impossible the way we're going here.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Pinter, give the number

23 of the document in B/C/S so that Mr. Praljak can look at the document,

24 and at the same time give the number in English, of the English page, so

25 that each and every one can see and follow. Thank you.

Page 8130

1 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

2 Q. General, take the binder up, because you have the Croatian page

3 numbers there, and look at the original as well. That's the only way we

4 can proceed. Otherwise, the Prosecution won't be able to follow, and

5 that won't be a good thing.

6 Now, we reached 3D32-1040. That was the page number, to simplify

7 matters.

8 My learned friend Mr. Kovacic wants me to tell you that we're

9 referring to the same document all the time.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter can't catch the number. Too

11 fast.

12 MS. PINTER: [Previous translation continues]... It is "Aid by

13 the Republic of Croatia to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina." So I

14 don't give the main numbers all the time, because I said at the very

15 beginning that it was one document, and that is 3D02633, and there are a

16 series of documents there.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it. It is the 5th of

18 March, 1993, and you can give the English number.

19 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

20 Q. 3D38-0025 is the English reference. That's right. Now we can

21 move on.

22 You leaf through the document --

23 A. The next date is the 6th of March.

24 Q. That is 3D38-0026, or 3D32-1041.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, please. This document, 0025, is

Page 8131

1 dated 5 March. It is from the Croatian Army Main Staff, and some

2 material is to be issued for Grude Logistics Base. I was of the opinion

3 that Grude was the headquarters of Mate Boban and a place of the HVO, but

4 I thought that the purpose was to show that material went to the ABiH.

5 And can I -- do I misunderstand something, overlook something which

6 indicates that this, in fact, was material for the ABiH and not for the

7 HVO?

8 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the problem is that

9 you've already heard witnesses who have -- they were Bosniaks, Muslims,

10 who took over weapons in Grude, at the logistics base there of the HVO at

11 Grude. Now, by this we wish to demonstrate and are demonstrating that

12 the logistics base in Grude received weapons, that weapons were coming

13 in, and the source of those weapons, if you look at the documents, we'll

14 see -- or, rather, you'll see where those weapons were sent on to

15 further. So these documents show where the trucks could have left from

16 or -- well, the general wants to say something.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel, we have

18 heard testimony from witnesses here who said how many weapons from Grude

19 went to the BH Army. A portion went to Grude first and was then sent on

20 to the BH Army, and another part went directly to Visoko, as I said. The

21 third part went to other places. And if we look at the document of the

22 6th of March, 1993, the next document, we'll be able to see that.

23 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

24 Q. General, just a moment, please. Could the Court and the

25 Trial Chamber look at 3D38-0024 now, please.

Page 8132

1 A. And what's the Croatian number?

2 Q. The Croatian number is 38 -- 3D32-1039. The date is the same.

3 It's the 6th of March, 1993, and this is instructions for the issuance of

4 equipment for the requirements of Grude, and MTS taken over by Mr. Sujab

5 from Sarajevo, and the equipment will be transported in the following

6 vehicles. And the trucks are listed, with their drivers.

7 General, the drivers of these trucks --

8 A. Well, it goes to Zenica, and they were all Muslims. They were

9 all trucks from Zenica, going to Zenica, and we only wrote down that it

10 was going to Grude, whereas it was being dispatched directly to Zenica.

11 And the drivers were Muslim drivers, driving for the BH Army. So I think

12 some things are so clear, and we've been repeating them umpteen times

13 that there can be no doubt.

14 Q. Now, General, the 6th of March, 1993, 3D32 is the Croatian,

15 3D32-1042. The English is 3D38-0027. And that is a letter sent to the

16 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, that's who it's addressed

17 to, and it is sent by the BH Army and the Logistics Centre in Zagreb.

18 The coordinator is Azim Karamehmedovic.

19 A. Yes, that's what I've been trying to say throughout. The

20 BH Army, on the 6th of March, after a series of conflicts had already

21 taken place, there were things going on in Konjic already, and everything

22 was clear to us already. Well, we weren't stupid down there not to

23 realise what was going on, neither in Croatia or in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 On the 6th of March, and we'll see this later on, too, there was a

25 logistics centre in Zagreb, the army of another state which is taking

Page 8133

1 over what is listed in this document and is driving it to Zenica,

2 transporting it to Zenica, and they're all Muslims. This man,

3 Stipo Blazevic, he's a Croat. But all the others are Muslims. And the

4 coordinator of all this is Engineer Azim Karamehmedovic who was in the

5 logistics centre of the BH Army in Zagreb. And the criminal enterprise

6 has been going on, according to the Prosecution, for already two years.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, a question

8 [indiscernible]. This document of March 6th on the delivery of weapons

9 to Zenica, could you tell us whether at the time, in March, you knew that

10 the 7th Brigade was stationed in Zenica? The 7th Brigade was the

11 strong -- it was part of the 3rd Corps; did you know that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I knew about the 7th,

13 the 17th, the Mujahedin. I was well informed. I was totally informed

14 about everything. As you will hear later on, we still hoped that he --

15 we would be able to prevent the conflict. I'm going to show it very

16 clearly on my own example.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may further to clarify. It appears to me,

18 and I stand, of course, to be corrected, that the documents from, in

19 English, 0024 to 0027, are all very closely linked together. They always

20 seem to come up, those 100.000 bullets and the thousand 152-millimetre

21 rounds. One document shows - that's 25 - that they are to be delivered

22 to Grude. Then there is an order that they -- that was 26, I think. And

23 then there's the letter of 6th March which says who is going to pick it

24 up. We have again the same number. And then we have the drivers that

25 pick them up at 24. Is that correct? Are all these four documents

Page 8134

1 concerning, inter alia, the exactly same parcel of ammunition?

2 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] You can see that from the names of

3 the drivers, the registration plates. And we started with Grude to show

4 the origins of the loads, but they are connected by the dates, by the

5 sequence.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, therefore, some things do

7 go to Gradacac, but they are destined for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Corps,

8 for the 106th units as well. However, the main escort of the convoy,

9 Mr. Emir Beslagic, hails from Visoko. And all this has been taken to

10 Visoko.

11 Please we're not -- I know, I understand all the questions. But

12 look here, if you're delivering a thousand shells for 152-millimetre

13 calibre weapons, then this is not exactly a small quantity. It's not

14 peanuts, is it?

15 You can go on, Ms. Pinter.

16 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] I believe that we can move on to the

17 next topic, Mr. Stojic's Defence has already presented so much evidence

18 and so many documents about the arms.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could, please, the shuffling in the courtroom

20 stop, because we can't follow anything in the booths.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look at the document 3D32-1051.

22 This is the 7th April, 1993.

23 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I would like to

24 provide the Trial Chamber with the English number, which I don't have

25 because I did not prepare it.

Page 8135

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got it.

2 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

3 Q. English?

4 A. 3D32-1051.

5 Q. This is Croatian. I don't have the English.

6 A. Well, it's the 7th April. It's already April 1993, and it says

7 the Main Staff of the HVO has approved an unhindered passage of the MTS.

8 A list is then given of all the vehicles, with their loads, how many

9 bullets; 1 million; RPG rockets, 1.048 pieces; automatic rifle, 305

10 pieces; Maljutka, seven pieces. That's for anti-armour defence. This

11 was on the 7th of April, 1993. And then I don't know whether you have it

12 on your list, 18 February 1993, two transport helicopters were purchased,

13 MI8T [phoen] for the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. This is 3D32-1052, but I still don't have the English pages.

15 A. Well, never mind. It's neither here nor there.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I can assist, it might be 3D38-0035.

17 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] This refers to the document dated

18 18 February, 1993, or the previous one?

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The 7th of April, 1993.

20 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ms. Nika, let's move on, let's go

22 on.

23 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please go to 3D32-1061. In English, this is 3D38-0047.

25 A. Yes.

Page 8136

1 Q. This is a report, i.e., a letter to the Office for National

2 Security of Croatian Report Service. The date is 10 May, 1999. The

3 Ministry of the Interior Service for Protection Constitutional Order of

4 the Republic of Croatia. General, what do you know about the allegations

5 in this document and about this document, in general?

6 A. I also know that all the staff from the BH Army who were working

7 in Croatia were allowed to obtain communications tools. We have evidence

8 to that, and we will see about (redacted), because I personally

9 approved for lost quantities of communication equipment to be given to

10 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And here it is stated very clearly in

11 the third paragraph --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Praljak. We

13 might need to redact, because you mentioned a witness for whom you sought

14 protective measures.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the microphones which are not in use

16 please be switched off. Thank you.

17 Could the counsel please turn on the microphone.

18 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Luckily enough, the name on the

19 record is not correct, but I would still like to thank you, Your Honour,

20 for making sure that the person is protected.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the third paragraph, there is a

22 reference to all the persons who came to collect all that and the places

23 where all that went to.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

25 Registrar, can you please prepare a redacting order; page 27,

Page 8137

1 line 23.

2 Please continue.

3 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. General, can you now go to the packing of food products.

5 3D32-1084 is the page number. We are talking about UNHCR trucks, weapons

6 packaged in food stuff packaging. The English page is 3D38-0078,

7 Croatian page 3D32-1084.

8 A. Yes. There is a cluster of documents testifying to the fact

9 that -- or, rather, how all that was done. This is especially important

10 in the case of Bihac, because in addition to the helicopter and the

11 aircraft flights, of which some were brought down and they could not have

12 transported enough for such a huge corps. Among the personnel of the

13 United Nations and UNHCR there was people who, when they returned from

14 Bihac, having seen what the situation was like over there, and who was

15 attacking whom over there, and what could happen there, and how people

16 fared over there, they simply, for their humanitarian reasons and

17 motives, that's the only interpretation I have, they violated the rules

18 of their own service. That's how I interpret the whole thing. I don't

19 think this was permissible. However, when some provisions of the law are

20 contrary to the moral feelings of an individual, certain individuals opt

21 for their moral sentiments rather than for the letter of the law. And

22 they -- these people then agreed to transport weapons in the food

23 packaging, and this was all done with the knowledge of Franjo Tudjman,

24 Gojko Susak, and mine, and this was all done in the barracks of the

25 Croatian Army.

Page 8138

1 MS. PINTER: Just for the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution, the

2 time-frame is 1993. All the documents are relevant to the year 1993.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, sorry for

4 returning to a previous important question. I really try to understand

5 the concatenation of events and also the objectives. No doubt, the

6 documents we saw earlier of March showed that weapons were supplied to

7 the ABiH. One driver from Zenica came to pick them up. This was in

8 March 1993. But I asked you a question then. I asked you whether you

9 knew that the 7th Brigade was stationed in Zenica, and you said, Yes.

10 Therefore, I have to ask you the other side of my question.

11 Did you know that since January 1993, Croatian civilians had been

12 detained in Zenica?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And despite the fact that they

15 were detained, you send weapons?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, we will see

17 later on when exactly, but it was sometime at the beginning of March. We

18 had a witness here. I was up there in order to calm the situation down.

19 I was in Zenica even with Mr. Prkacin. He was a HOS general, and in some

20 way he was tied to the area, and we tried to see if we could have people

21 released. And I was his driver. At that time, I was a driver in Zenica.

22 Somehow it happened that I was driving Mr. Prkacin.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I assume, then -- with a

24 decision as important as this one, what was the decisive factor to keep

25 on supplying weapons? Was it the fact that you had a common enemy, that

Page 8139

1 is, the Serb forces, and the very fact that there were civilians in

2 Zenica? It was, of course, a dramatic event that could find a solution.

3 Therefore, when you weigh out the common purpose and the issue of

4 civilians detained in Zenica, you ended up opting for the general

5 interest, which was to fight the Serbian forces? Was it that factor that

6 was taken on board?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exclusively that element,

8 Your Honour. In war, you never -- or almost never have an opportunity to

9 choose between the good and the evil. In 99 percent of the cases in war,

10 at least this type of war, you have a decision which is bad and a

11 decision which is even worse, and you opt for the lesser evil. You make

12 a decision that you believe will result in less evil.

13 It was painful to talk to the people who were closely related to

14 the detainees over there. However, all of us who were thinking about

15 that, starting with President Tudjman, myself, and Petkovic, what would

16 have happened if we had cut that off and if we had told them, There's no

17 weapons forthcoming? Let's develop that scenario.

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina would simply politically join Yugoslavia,

19 and Muslims would have disappeared. They would have been expelled.

20 50.000 or 60.000 more people would have been killed. That's at least

21 what the Serbs did. And what good would that have brought us? And a

22 million-plus would have been expelled, and this would have been a total

23 disaster.

24 We never interrupted the supply of weapons, communications means,

25 reproduction materials. Food and humanitarian convoys were the least of

Page 8140

1 our problems. However, Your Honours, of course, listen -- look here,

2 actually. A mother whose son is over there, a man [as interpreted] whose

3 son is detained, she does not want to talk about all things general, she

4 doesn't want to look at the bigger picture. All she cares about is her

5 own detained son. And if you have 50 parents on your hands, the only

6 thought on their minds is that their children are down there, that their

7 children are not coming back. And we, on the other hand, are letting the

8 weapons go through. And that's why the convoy in Citluk was stopped.

9 They were not interested in the global policy of Franjo Tudjman,

10 Petkovic, Stojic, Prlic, or Praljak, or whoever. That mother wants her

11 baby and does not see beyond that, which is only understandable, of

12 course.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. General, on 3D32-1085, or 3D38-0079, you will see the schematic

16 of the place where the weapons were packaged.

17 A. Yes, Zdencina and some of the places in Zagreb.

18 Q. What follows are documents testifying to the way the weapons were

19 packaged. I would like to draw your attention to the screen. It will be

20 easier for you to read, 3D38-0086, and 3D32, is the Croatian

21 version, -1089.

22 A. I don't have anything to add to the documents. The documents are

23 self-explanatory. They are clear enough. I just tender those documents

24 for admission. If the Court is going to admit these documents, I have

25 nothing to add to them. They are very clear; they are self-explanatory.

Page 8143

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Here, you see that the total number of documents is 158, and they

3 all speak about the establishment of the units, and that in the annex

4 there are 32 documents. And now I'm going to ask you to take us through

5 the annex.

6 A. Well, in the Croatian version, that's 3D32-1108. We can see a

7 map.

8 Q. Let me just give the English reference. It's 3D38-0111.

9 A. Well, where the units that were sent to Central Bosnia were

10 actually set up, the units sent to Bosnia and Posavina and to the Bihac

11 enclave. And here we're talking about units that were made up mostly of

12 ethnic Muslims, and it shows the routes they took.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

15 Q. The units were the 7th Brigade --

16 A. The 77th Brigade.

17 Q. Yes, the 77th. I can hardly see.

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. The 77th Brigade, the Rijeka, the Berbir Brigade, the

20 Handzar Brigade, and the 17th Brigade from Zagreb.

21 A. Yes, those were their names.

22 Q. I'm reading.

23 A. Well, the next document in Croatian, that's 1109.

24 Q. 3D38-0112.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have a question to the document 0111. I do

Page 8144

1 not see a date here. Is it possible to have a date?

2 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, 0111, that's an overview,

3 and now as we go through the documents, we'll see the dates. The dates

4 are on the documents. You can see them on the documents. It's 1993 and

5 1992. This is just an overview, and then through the documents you can

6 see the dates.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's take the next one,

8 then, 1109.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Kovacic -- oh,

10 sorry. I know that in the interest of time, we moved on to 3D38-0111,

11 but you're going to seek to tender all the documents, so this has to be

12 on record. There are documents about July and August, so with regard to

13 the time-frame we have documents about July and August, or even January

14 1994. Can you confirm this or not?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Throughout the

16 time, I say that for all those documents that we don't have enough time

17 to go through them. My argument is clear, continually in 1992, 1993,

18 1994, 1995, with minor hitches in the second half of 1993 that we managed

19 to resolve by smuggling the weapons behind our own backs, but the weapons

20 kept coming into Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, follow-up

22 questions about military tactics.

23 I saw in the documents that oil for tanks was supplied, which

24 goes to show that the ABiH had tanks. Can you confirm this?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The BH Army had

Page 8145

1 quite a few tanks. We gave them a tank from Jablanica, when they wanted

2 to liberate Sarajevo, and then they never -- well, we can't,

3 unfortunately, go through all this. And raw materials for the production

4 of some casings in Konjic. That's what we transported, and there are

5 documents to support it, from the Ploce port, and the materials used for

6 the production of gunpowder. I really -- I'm telling you, boots,

7 clothes, oil, ammunition, telecommunications equipment, raw materials,

8 medicines, well, for the wounded, and the wounded -- it's humanitarian

9 aid, it's not under this chapter. But everything that could be obtained

10 under the conditions went to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, let me give

12 you the English and Croatian page references for the 7th -- for the July

13 and August of 1993, referring to the consignments going to BH Army.

14 That's 3D32-1099. The English version is 3D38-0099. 3D32-1101, that's

15 the Croatian version; and 3D38-0102, 010 -- oh, I'm sorry, 3201. I'm

16 sorry, I got confused. 3D38-0105, 3D32-1103 --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could the shuffles of papers

18 please be kept at a minimum. We can hardly hear the speaker.

19 MS. PINTER: [Previous translation continues]... 3D38-0106,

20 that's the English version. 3D32-1104, the Croatian version. 3D32-1105,

21 that's the Croatian version. 3D38-0108, that's the English version.

22 Q. And now we go back to the establishment of the units, General,

23 but it's also time for our break.

24 A. Well, we can look at 1109.

25 Q. Which is, which in English is 3D38-0112.

Page 8146

1 A. The date is the 26th of January, 1993, and it's the Military

2 Mission of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. What's the date?

4 A. Well, I gave you the date. It's the 26th of January, Colonel

5 Hasan Efendic, and they are asking for an urgent meeting with

6 General Bobetko. And this is what's on the agenda: To continue

7 discussions and to set up a collection point -- well, in Lika and Kordun

8 they have this collection point centre. That's where Muslims from abroad

9 and from Croatia come. There were quite a few of them living abroad, and

10 then they were to be sent to Bihac because there were some routes still

11 open there.

12 And then item number 2 is a procurement and other -- purchase or

13 other forms of procurement and military equipment; 3, cooperation and

14 coordination between the Croatian Army and the 5th Corps; then

15 maintaining the airlift and various other issues. And this meeting was

16 to be attended by the secretary for military issues from the 5th Corps,

17 Brigadier Hajrudin Osmanagic.

18 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Since it is time for our break, the

19 next document will be dealt with after the break.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to break for

21 20 minutes.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

24 [The accused Pusic not present]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

Page 8147

1 Mr. Pusic left us for a while. He is not feeling well. We hope

2 that he will come back soon.

3 You have the floor.

4 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. General, would you open to page 3D32-1110, and the English

6 page is 3D38-0113. It is a report on the work of the Crisis Staff for

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Split, dated the 6th of April to the 18th of October,

8 1992. The document was written in Split, which is the Republic of

9 Croatia, and it was written on the 18th of October, 1992. General, what

10 do you know about the circumstances when this document was compiled, and

11 the work of the Crisis Staff, and the document in general?

12 A. First of all, let me say that there were crisis staffs of this

13 kind for Bosnia-Herzegovina on the territory of the Republic of Croatia

14 in great numbers, and we have a report from Split here and the

15 Crisis Staff in Split. There were many such crisis staffs, and they list

16 how many volunteers they sent to Visoko, to Northern Bosnia, to

17 Krajl Tomislav, which was a unit fighting in Southern Croatia first and

18 then it came under the command of the BH Army.

19 Q. General, that is on 3D32-111 [as interpreted] and 3D38-0114. Go

20 ahead.

21 A. As I was saying, the unit came under the direct command later on

22 of Mr. Izetbegovic, and we've already seen this document, and he

23 appointed a commander, and that was the man Daidza, Mate Sarlija -

24 Daidza. And then the 1st Mostar Independent Battalion, that's the

25 battalion that later on became the 1st Mostar Brigade and later on the

Page 8148

1 4th Corps, with 118 volunteers, and so on and so forth. And in

2 conclusion, they say that they sent over 2.000 volunteers to the armed

3 forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO. And it says that there

4 were women and foreign nationals from Algeria, France, Turkey, who were

5 sent and who helped them; how everybody tried to help them in Split. All

6 the companies and the Croatian Army lent their assistance to these people

7 coming in. Anyway, he explains in detail how much humanitarian aid was

8 being given and how they were generally helped out with transport and in

9 all manner of other ways.

10 Q. And the document was signed by the president of the Crisis Staff

11 for Bosnia-Herzegovina, Split, Alija Dzafo; right?

12 A. Yes, and he is sending this to the government of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, it's addressed to them, and to Hasan Efendic, the

14 military attache of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Croatia, and the Bureau of the

15 Republic of BH in Croatia. So the Presidency or Government of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina had an office in Croatia, bureau in Croatia, and

17 that's where the government meetings were held, and so on and so forth,

18 as they would be in a completely open and friendly country.

19 Q. May we have your knowledge and additional information on document

20 3D32-1112, a document we've already seen, and in English it is 3D38-0123.

21 A. 112, but which one? I can't find that 112.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to ask a question with regard to

23 the document which we have just had. It is a report on the work of the

24 Crisis Staff for Bosnia and Herzegovina, Split. I was of the opinion

25 that Split was in Croatia. Now, is this another Split, or how come there

Page 8149

1 is a Bosnia and Herzegovina crisis staff in a Croatian town? Can you

2 explain this, Mr. Praljak?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour

4 Judge Trechsel. That is precisely what I've been talking about all this

5 time; not only in Split, by the way. There were such crisis staffs -- BH

6 crisis staffs in Croatia. Well, certainly more than 10 of them; Split,

7 Rijeka, Zagreb, Sisak, I believe, Slavonski Brod, and so on.

8 As I was saying, Croatia, in all respects, at all levels, at all

9 levels of the army, in every way possible, the government, the president,

10 the authorities, the various towns, offered aid and assistance,

11 comprehensive aid and assistance, to Bosnia-Herzegovina for its defence.

12 And this is one report which tells us the companies involved, the

13 warehouses placed at their disposal, the monies paid out, the weapons

14 provided to individuals, and so on. Each of these groups were armed.

15 They didn't go over there bare-handed.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I'm still a bit puzzled.

17 In Bosnia-Herzegovina, I gained the impression that where a

18 crisis staff took over, it took over the functions of the municipal

19 government, as in view of the emergency war situation. I must assume,

20 unless told or explained otherwise, that the term "crisis staff" in

21 Croatian towns does not have the same meaning, but rather is something

22 like an association of the friends of Bosnia-Herzegovina, something of

23 that kind. Is that wrong?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, partially yes, partially no,

25 Judge Trechsel. The same was done by the crisis staffs in

Page 8150

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the same things, kind of things, which means that

2 with the siege of Sarajevo and with the state disintegrating and its

3 communications disintegrating, to send anybody to defend something over

4 there and to go up to the front-lines, you had to rally people, collect

5 people from somewhere, collect the weapons, train the people, so this was

6 the same that the crisis staffs in Bosnia-Herzegovina did, the same kinds

7 of activities they were engaged in. These were authorised structures and

8 recognised in the state of Croatia as such, as the military attaches, as

9 branch offices of their Main Staff, in a way. They had their stamp,

10 their papers, their reports, and everything else. So they weren't just a

11 group of friends or an association of friends. They were registered by

12 the Croatian state, recognised by the state. A recognised institution,

13 if you will, by the state.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I think that the first

15 sentence in this document explains things. It says that the Crisis Staff

16 for Bosnia-Herzegovina - Split was established as part of the Split

17 branch of the Party of Democratic Action of Croatia. So if I understand

18 things right, the SDA was set up in Croatia. It seems to say this,

19 anyway. And starting from that, a branch of the SDA in Split christened

20 itself "Crisis Staff." Is this how we're supposed to understand this?

21 To your knowledge, was the SDA actually settled in Croatia?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, the

23 situation was somewhat different. The SDA of Croatia was an independent,

24 autonomous party within Croatia which followed the politics and policies

25 of the SDA of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But it was a party registered in

Page 8151

1 Croatia, just like the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina had the same programme

2 and platform as the HDZ of Croatia, of course, but it was an independent

3 party in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So this was the SDA Party of Croatia,

4 which had its branches, it was registered in Croatia, and on the

5 territory of the Republic of Croatia it existed in this way, as you just

6 read out, and it quite simply organised its legal branch offices. They

7 had their stamps and seals and offices, and everything else.

8 Of course, under normal conditions, in normal countries and

9 circumstances, this activity would not have been permitted, because it

10 would have gone against the grain and letter of many laws, but that's why

11 I keep emphasising that without an overall understanding of the

12 comprehensive situation, it's impossible to understand its individual

13 details in the right way. It was a war. There was a war on. People

14 would lose their lives. Lots of evil had already taken place.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, on page 2, page 114 of

16 the English version, there is one word, and I'm very careful with words

17 and the weight that can be attached to words. It's at the very end of

18 the page, and it says that there were 2.000 volunteers and that through

19 the crisis cell, these volunteers were dispatched to the OSBH and the

20 HVO. So when reading this, it looks like the crisis cell in Split, the

21 BiH Crisis Staff in Split, actually welcomes the volunteers and then

22 decides, on its own volition, how it's going to dispatch these

23 volunteers, which might lead us to think that in the mind of those people

24 in Split, the HVO and the ABiH is just one army, or two armies but joined

25 against a common enemy, against the Serbs. Is this the way it operated,

Page 8152

1 because it seems to be what this document indicates?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Judge Antonetti.

3 Here you see that these people reported to Pula, Rijeka, Varazdin, and

4 Zadar. They were registered there, and once they had gathered together,

5 there would be a team, and they would say, We're from Mostar, or the

6 surrounding parts, and we would like to go to the Mostar Independent

7 Battalion. Another group would say, We would like to go to Tomislavgrad,

8 and so on. And then that group would be armed and equipped and would be

9 transported to where they wanted to go, to the BH Army and the HVO. And

10 up until this point of time when this document was written, 2.000

11 volunteers had been recorded and dispatched.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is the first

13 time we see this document, but it -- out of memory, I think we've never

14 mentioned this, but it establishes that Muslims in Croatia wanted to go

15 back to Bosnia-Herzegovina and wanted to volunteer, actually, for

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So if we have Muslims who volunteer, do you think

17 that it could have had a psychological impact on Croats who said, Well,

18 if Muslims go to Bosnia-Herzegovina, why wouldn't we, as Croats of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, also go there? Was there, do you think, some kind of

20 impact either in one way or the other?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at this point in time,

22 Your Honour, nothing. At this point in time, the feeling of a joint

23 struggle was complete, so during this period there were no thoughts if

24 the Muslims were to go and so on. It was all on a volunteer basis,

25 according to individual sentiments, whether Croats or Muslims, and they

Page 8153

1 felt this urge, basic urge, inner urge to go, a moral duty to go and

2 defend areas where they thought were necessary.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document dates October 18,

4 1992, and this is around the Prozor elements. When the incidents

5 occurred in Prozor, I assume that in Croatia people knew about what had

6 happened in Prozor through the Muslims who were volunteering to go to

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, to be dispatched within the ranks of the HVO or of

8 the ABiH. As far as you know, could you tell us whether the incidents in

9 Prozor were actually relayed in the Croatian press, and do you believe

10 that these incidents had an impact on the behaviour of the volunteers to

11 be?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer is yes. There were

13 reports about that in the press, and this was considered a conflict of

14 local significance.

15 To your second question, Your Honour, not in general terms, but

16 there may have been individuals who hailed from the area were impacted by

17 the conflict, but in global terms that influence did not exist.

18 And another thing that you can see in the document is that what

19 the Croatian Army did was also done by Croatian companies. Towards the

20 end of the third page in Croatian, it says that the Laucevic company and

21 the ship-building yards and all the volunteers and employees of those

22 companies were still on their payroll and that the salaries were received

23 by their families, upon our approval. As I said, a lot of people in

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina worked in those companies, because the constructor

25 and the ship-building yards were big companies. These people were still

Page 8154

1 on their payrolls, and the money went to their families, which had

2 already been refugees or residing in the territory of the Republic of

3 Croatia.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thanks to your answer, I can

5 top this off and discuss this essential question of Prozor.

6 We know that you were there. We've had witnesses on this, and

7 I'm sure you'll come back to this. But when you were in Prozor, when you

8 were over there, did you go on your own volition, because you said, Well,

9 there's a local incident that occurred, let me go to try and cool things

10 down over there? Or did Mr. Tudjman tell you, Slobodan, go there. You

11 have to go; a local incident just occurred. It might completely disrupt

12 the situation, and you need to go over there and do something about it?

13 As far as you remember, could you tell us how it happened? Remember that

14 you're under oath, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am aware of that. I

16 was aware of that from the very beginning, Your Honour. I spoke about

17 that yesterday, and today I'm going to provide some more detail.

18 There are two events. One concerns Prozor, and the other

19 concerns Uskoplje -- Vakuf, yes. Both times, before I went up there, I

20 first had a word with President Tudjman. At one of the meetings with

21 President Tudjman, there was also President Alija Izetbegovic. I don't

22 know whether this was before going to Rama, but it is probably before I

23 went to Uskoplje and Gornji Vakuf. But it doesn't really matter; it's

24 neither here nor there. However, what does matter is the fact that at

25 one of these -- or, rather, both times, I was asked to go there and try

Page 8155

1 and calm the situation down, stop the conflict, and try to put things in

2 order. Both times, and I don't know at which Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was

3 present, on one of the two occasions, and I don't know which one that

4 was, and I said that, Mr. Franjo Tudjman, the president of the Croatian

5 state, said that to me in the following way: Praljak, this obviously

6 cannot be recorded. There is a difference between the spoken word and

7 the written word. He was slamming his fist on the desk, and he said,

8 Slobodan, go there. We don't want war with the Muslims. Stop it, stop

9 it. Of course, I obeyed him. This was not an order. He could not issue

10 an order to me. This was a request, which I obviously would not have

11 turned down. And then I did it in cooperation with Stojic, Petkovic, and

12 the rest of the team down there. However, I'm going to tell you exactly

13 how all that transpired.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is why I said

15 that you'll probably come back to this at one point in time, but I think

16 it's important to keep all this in mind.

17 Madam Pinter.

18 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Following up on the questions about this document, General,

20 according to what you know, the SDA of Croatia, was it active in 1993 and

21 1994 in the Republic of Croatia?

22 A. It still exists to this very day.

23 Q. At the time that the indictment refers to in 1993 and 1994, was

24 there ever a ban on its work?

25 A. No way.

Page 8156

1 Q. Since we are talking about Prozor, and when you were answering

2 questions by His Honour Judge Antonetti about your departure to Prozor in

3 1992, in October and later on, the question that imposes itself is as

4 follows: Why did President Tudjman and, on one occasion,

5 President Tudjman and Alija Izetbegovic, why did they ask you to go down

6 there?

7 A. It is much more probable that on the 15th of January,

8 Mr. Izetbegovic was there when they asked me to go to Uskoplje. This is

9 a much more probable scenario. I was in the territory of South-East

10 Herzegovina. I was in command down there, and I believe that the

11 witnesses who have testified in this courtroom, and all the others,

12 demonstrated and showed they trusted me and that both the peoples trusted

13 me, the representatives of both the peoples trusted me. I believe that I

14 did my job very correctly, with a lot of energy and a lot of engagement.

15 And then until the very end of the conflict, before I was accused

16 falsely of the bridge in Mostar, I was held in high esteem by the

17 commanders of both militaries and foot soldiers. If there's anything

18 I can say about myself, this would be it. And I believe that this was

19 testified by the Muslims who have testified here in this courtroom.

20 Q. Can you now please open page 3D32-1122. English, 3D38-0123.

21 This is a list of the members of the 77th Brigade. Could you say

22 something about the 77th Brigade? The document was issued by

23 Rijeka Municipality, and the entire document is voluminous and is in

24 e-court under 3D022259 [as interpreted]. And it contains the handwriting

25 of all the listed -- 3D02259.

Page 8157

1 A. I don't have --

2 Q. You've already spoken. You said something yesterday, when we

3 were discussing the issues of Hrvatski Vojnik."

4 A. There are 664 men. That's the last number, 664. There's a list

5 of all the men here. And as I already said, most of them are Muslims.

6 There is nothing to add to that.

7 Q. The following document is 3D32-1115, and the English version is

8 3D38-0124. This is the Crisis Staff for Bosnia-Herzegovina in Split

9 again. The year is 1992. The number is 3D32-1125. This is the number

10 of the Croatian document. Do you want to say something about the

11 document or is this just one in the series of documents issued by the

12 Crisis Staff in Split?

13 A. Yes. Well, we managed to collect that one from Split, but the

14 documents are always the same or very similar. It says that war crimes

15 are being committed, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and home-grown

16 Bosniaks in Split had to work, and they issued their decision to continue

17 their employment to [indiscernible] activities, and that work for the

18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is immeasurable. Mehmed Malkoc is hereby

19 appointed, and the military attache is going to be informed about that.

20 These are the offices of the military attaches of the Army of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina in Croatia, and this is under his jurisdiction.

22 Q. This document has a comment that follows the decision on the

23 second page, and the page is 3D32-1126; English, 3D38-0126. It was

24 issued on the 28th of December, 1993, in Split.

25 A. It is self-explanatory. I really don't know, what else I could

Page 8158

1 say? Again, they were commended by the commission of the Croatian SDA,

2 within that framework, and it says that the military delegation of the

3 BiH Army, consisting of Colonel Rifat Bilajac, Bina [phoen] Fabijan, and

4 Said Rizvic, and from all the military and civilian authorities in Split

5 are thanked for having helped to defend the sovereignty of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It says that there were volunteers that would help

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and their only desire was for their homeland of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be saved.

9 And it says here since this is all about military issues and

10 matters, all this information should be preserved and kept safe from

11 unauthorised persons. In those areas, there was a limitless number of

12 spies from all states, from the KOS, the former State Security Service,

13 and the international community sent a huge number of those who did

14 whatever they did in each of their contingents, and that's why this has

15 to be preserved and kept safe in order to protect the members of the

16 Crisis Staff.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Go to 3D32-1132; English, 3D38-0133. The

18 document bears the date the 29 October, 1992. It was based on the

19 decision of the Presidency of the Republic of -- the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina on general mobilisation. What I would like to draw

21 your attention to is the text below the order.

22 General, do you know anything about the armed forces of the HV

23 under the command of Senad Dedic a member of the HV for the Republic of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. Yes, of course, yes; that's this. These people have to be

Page 8159

1 transported to Mount Igman, close to Sarajevo, the Famos Hotel by bus.

2 They once again have to take the long and hard road. Among them is

3 Christopher James Watson, who is an Englishman, and again military

4 attache is signed, and it's very difficult to understand, it's very

5 difficult to accept that. However, in a speech of his, Franjo Tudjman

6 said, and we saw the speech yesterday, he said that they behaved in the

7 Republic of Croatia as they would have -- I don't know whether they would

8 have be served [as interpreted] in the same way in their own state. They

9 were free. I'm not saying that we knew all that. However, they were

10 free to do whatever they wanted. They could issue orders. They received

11 everything they ever wanted. They would come armed, they would leave

12 armed. In that sense, in that sense, we did not behave as a different

13 state. We behaved as their own branch office for everything.

14 Q. And, General, what about Igman? Why is Mount Igman important?

15 A. Because --

16 Q. Did it have any bearing on the issue of Sarajevo, the blockade of

17 Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes, that was the only possible passage through which you could

19 enter Sarajevo and then later on via the tunnel.

20 Q. Thank you. Please go to 3D --

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You are overlapping, you start speaking while

22 the interpretation is going on, so perhaps you could start again.

23 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. General, 3D32-1135 is the next page I would like you to look at;

25 English, 3D38-0136. This is a document about the mobilisation of the

Page 8160

1 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina which was sent to the Ministry of the

2 Interior of the Republic of Croatia and the Police Administration of the

3 city of Zagreb. Do you have any personal knowledge about the

4 circumstances surrounding this document, i.e., about the need to mobilise

5 people and how the mobilisation was implemented?

6 A. In keeping with what I have been repeating, without any reason to

7 repeat things, he says that one of the three officials of the government

8 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is in Zagreb, and those are

9 Dr. Semso Tankovic, Tomo Krsticevic, and Miljenko Brkic. It says that

10 there are some problems; they're talking about the rights to stamp

11 documents, who is an authorised person, and so on and so forth.

12 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the beginning, where it

13 says:

14 "Certain problems and misunderstandings have occurred in recent

15 times when taking in and deporting military conscripts for -- who are the

16 citizens of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and who are currently

17 staying in the Republic of Croatia, a task being carried out by the

18 Ministry of the Interior as instructed --"

19 A. There was a misunderstanding at stake here. They had proclaimed

20 mobilisation, and they wanted people who were to respond to the

21 mobilisation. They asked for these people to be taken in. And from that

22 arose some problems because there were people who didn't want to go, and

23 they cited their right not to go into war, and the Red Cross approved

24 that because one can refuse to go into war. And when the legal dimension

25 of the problem was finally understood, then this whole exercise was

Page 8161

1 abandoned. However, they thought --

2 MR. STRINGER: Could the general indicate whether this is a

3 document from 1992 or 1993. It says "23 September," but the year is not

4 indicated. It's not on the original, either. We looked at that.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question, but

6 it is more likely that this was the year 1992 because the mobilisation

7 was declared at that time, and it's more likely that it's 1992 than 1993,

8 and I think that Dr. Semso Tankovic was -- I don't know -- he was the

9 president of the SDA in Zagreb, or if not, he was a high-ranking member

10 of the organisation. And Dr. Semso Tankovic teaches at the School of

11 Economics in Zagreb, and he's a member of the Croatian Parliament today.

12 I think he's serving his second or third term of office. He lived in

13 Croatia, he's a Croatian citizen, and he was also a member of the BH

14 government.

15 So anything went. When it came to assisting the Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, all legal provisions of law or intensity of law or

17 rank could be violated; who was born where, who was a member of what

18 government. So he could, at the same time, serve as a member of the

19 government and, at the same time, teach at the Zagreb School of

20 Economics, and --

21 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow

22 me, from what I was able to understand from the interpretation, I think

23 that General Praljak said that it was the citizens of the Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina residing in the Republic of Croatia that were being

25 drafted.

Page 8162

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's what I said, conscripts,

2 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina who are in -- well, I know from my own

3 job that there were problems, because this was not supposed to be done,

4 because you cannot draft --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we're talking about people

7 being taken into custody.

8 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Yes, but it was on the demand of the Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, not the decision of the Republic of Croatia.

11 A. Yes, of course. I'm sorry, yes, that's all correct. But soon

12 enough, people realised that this could not be done, that there could be

13 no mobilisation in the territory of another state.

14 Q. Could we now move to our next topic, and the topic is the

15 training centres of the BH Army in the Republic of Croatia. That's at

16 page 3D32-1140; English, 3D38-0140. The total number of documents that

17 we have, regarding the training centres, is 120, and in this file we have

18 15 of them.

19 General, what can you tell us, in general? What is your personal

20 knowledge about the existence of the BH Army training centres in the

21 Republic of Croatia? And then we'll move on.

22 A. Well, some of the locations where training centres are listed

23 here --

24 Q. That's at page 3D32-1142; English, 3D38-0141. In e-court, the

25 map is much more visible than it is in the hard copy.

Page 8163

1 A. Well, here are the training centres, training -- well, no, these

2 are not pilots.

3 Q. No, these are not pilots. The training for BH Army members in

4 1991-1992.

5 A. Well, we have a wrong map on the e-court. It was in Borongaj, as

6 far as Zagreb was concerned, then in Svete Simonska [phoen] Street at

7 Sljeme --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could the speakers not speak

9 at the same time.

10 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] I have to correct the number for the

11 sake of e-court. It's 3D32-1142.

12 JUDGE PRANDLER: Wait for each other. Thank you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 41.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It would really be helpful if the Judges would

15 not have to recall this rule all the time. Is it not possible to make an

16 effort and to refrain from this shooting before the other shot has

17 arrived, please?

18 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] I'll try to restrain myself.

19 3D32-1141. Now we have the right map.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here we have a list of

21 locations in Croatia where there were training centres, where BH Army

22 personnel were trained. There are two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve --

23 twelve. These are not all of them, but I listed just the major ones.

24 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you have anything else?

Page 8164

1 A. No.

2 Q. Anything apart from this on the training centres?

3 A. Apart from that, not. Ms. Pinter, training centres are training

4 centres. People are gathered there, and then they're trained for combat

5 before being sent to Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the BH Army.

6 Q. Very well. Could you please open 3D32-1144. That's the Croatian

7 version, 3D38-0144. And the next page, that's the list of candidates for

8 specialist training in the Croatian MUP. The document was issued by the

9 Democratic Action Party of Sarajevo. The date is the 8th of July, 1991,

10 and there is a list of documents -- or, rather, of persons who underwent

11 this training, and the last number is 463.

12 A. Yes. From this document, we can see that in the Democratic

13 Action Party, there was somebody who was smart when it came to police.

14 At that time, I think it was Delimustafic, and Stojic was also in the

15 ministry, and they were smart enough to realise that -- to realise what

16 was in the offing. And then through the party, because at that time they

17 couldn't do it through the state because it would naturally cause a total

18 hysteria among the Serbs, so they went through the party channels,

19 seeking assistance from Croatia in the training of these people. Of

20 course, war was already raging in Croatia, but Croatia did admit those

21 people to a seven-day course, and they went back. And I think that at

22 the beginning, the Special Police played an important role in saving

23 Sarajevo, Vikic's units, and so on.

24 Q. Very well. Here we have a document of the 3rd of August, 1992,

25 at page 3D32-1147, and the English version is 3D38-0146. A mention is

Page 8165

1 made of a Handzar division. Do you know anything about the

2 Handzar Division, where it was established, and where it fought, and in

3 what theaters?

4 A. Of course, it is not a division. That was its name, the

5 Handzar Division, but it was a unit, a small brigade, half a brigade, in

6 terms of its strength. It fought in Posavina. It gathered in the

7 Republic of Croatia, and it was trained in the Republic of Croatia.

8 These -- this kind of authorisations were issued by all the commanders.

9 They would provide them with a piece of paper that was then used by the

10 gentleman in question by way of introduction in Croatia. All the clubs

11 gathering people from certain areas, there were dozens of them, were

12 people from Visoko, Brcko, Tuzla, Doboj would gather. Those were the

13 so-called home clubs, and then they would gather aid only for their

14 specific location. So it was parallel activities. It was done on all

15 levels and parallel efforts, because everybody wanted to do something.

16 So every commander from Bosnia and Herzegovina, either from the HVO or

17 from the BH Army, would get some kind of an authorisation in order to be

18 able to maybe find something to purchase in addition to the official

19 channels, maybe some people they knew in Germany, and then they would go

20 to East Germany and buy army surplus stuff left after Russian -- after

21 Russians withdrew, because people were really clever. So there were

22 thousands and thousands of these kinds of papers.

23 Q. I was waiting for the transcript to finish. Could you please now

24 turn -- now we're going to the file about the training of pilots from

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Republic of Croatia. This file begins at

Page 8166

1 page 3D32-1156, and the English version begins at 3D38-0155, generally

2 speaking, about the training of pilots from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

3 Republic of Croatia.

4 A. Well, in all other areas, they couldn't do it in Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina, and Croatia provided not only the knowledge of its own

6 pilots and the capabilities at its disposal to train the pilots,

7 helicopter pilots and -- well, for the most part, they didn't have any

8 planes. But the pilots who knew how to fly planes had to now be

9 retrained to fly helicopters.

10 Q. Could you please now look at page 3D32-1159.

11 A. You don't have 58?

12 Q. I do. I'm sorry. Very well. So could we first look at

13 3D32-1158. That's 3D38-0157 in the English version. The date is the

14 9th of August, 1992, Sarajevo, the Presidency of the Republic of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the president, Alija Izetbegovic, the minister of

16 national defence, Jerko Doko, sends to the Ministry of the National

17 Defence of the Republic of Croatia its request. What do you know,

18 General, about this document?

19 A. Well, here we have the first 22 people, so this is the 9th of

20 August, 1992. The war is raging. Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, as the

21 president of the Presidency, and Minister Jerko Doko signed this request.

22 And, of course, this was complied with, Croatia provided those services.

23 And the people listed here were sent to appropriate training, as

24 requested. The only thing that's wrong here is we didn't have the

25 Ministry of National Defence.

Page 8167

1 Q. Our next document is the one that I referred to earlier. That's

2 3D32-1159, and the English version is 3D38-0159. This is the document

3 dated the 27th of December, 1992. Again, this is the training of pilots

4 and technicians in the Republic of Croatia.

5 A. Yes. As Judge Antonetti would say, after the conflicts in Rama

6 and some conflicts in Novi Travnik, well, the conflicts did not change

7 anything in terms of the political and all other decisions in the

8 Republic of Croatia, the commitment to help Bosnia-Herzegovina in every

9 way, in every way. I mean every way.

10 Q. There was training in 1993. We can see that from the document

11 3D32-1161; English, 3D38-0162. Do you want to say something about this

12 document?

13 A. Well, it says here arrangements have been made with the command

14 of the air force and air defence of the Republic of Croatia. Of course,

15 they couldn't talk to the air force without an appropriate decision of

16 Minister Susak and without my decision, because at that time I was

17 involved in the political decision-making, and, of course, without the

18 appropriate decision of Franjo Tudjman. They couldn't just go there and

19 do that without any political decision made by the political leadership.

20 And we are now on the 8th of March, 1993. Nothing has changed in the

21 policy of the Republic of Croatia, and nothing will change in the future.

22 Q. Yes, and negotiations are underway. On the 3rd of March, there

23 were negotiations in New York.

24 A. Well, yes. As far as the political relations are concerned,

25 Alija Izetbegovic has already trampled on lots of things;

Page 8168

1 Cutileiro's Plan; the Vance-Owen Plan was also set aside; the elements of

2 the behavior and where it was all going. It was clear to people who

3 didn't have such sharp political eyesight. But still we didn't change

4 our policies.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I'm looking at this

6 document as I was looking at the others. This morning I was reading your

7 pre-trial brief in which you were speaking of the international armed

8 conflict. As far as you know, and you have read a lot, you have studied

9 a lot, in the history of armies can we find situations in which there is

10 a conflict between a state, say State A and State B, in which the State B

11 would get their pilots trained in the other state? Has such a situation

12 occurred yet, as say, for example, today in Afghanistan, as if NATO were

13 to train Taliban pilots or soldiers? Do you have any such examples?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour Judge Antonetti,

15 I said already, and I maintain this, and I challenge any military expert

16 to contest my claims. The way that the Republic of Croatia acted towards

17 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Muslims, at an earlier stage when

18 there were isolated, small-scale conflicts, and later on when there were

19 major conflicts, especially in Konjic in Central Bosnia, and then further

20 down to Mostar, the policy remained the same almost as if nothing was

21 going on there. There is no precedent in history, no such example in

22 history, anything of the sort where a state and a nation acted in this

23 manner towards another state, towards Muslims, even at the time -- this

24 is what they said loud and clear. Even at the time when those people

25 attacked elements of that same nation. Just imagine, what would happen

Page 8169

1 if someone were to attack the French in Quebec. Let's say that the

2 English -- anglophone-Canadians, for instance, and then France is arming

3 and aiding the English who are attacking the French in Quebec. Well,

4 that has never happened anywhere else.

5 Let me give you an example from the Second World War, when

6 de Gaulle approved the air-strikes by the English in which lots of French

7 soldiers were killed, because the French officers refused to hand over

8 the shipping to the English because some of the French officers hated the

9 English more than they hated Hitler, but that was dictated by the logic

10 of war.

11 This is contrary -- this, what we have here, is contrary to any

12 logic of war. You can call any of your generals and ask them whether

13 they would do anything of the sort and whether they heard of anything of

14 the sort. And now in some heads we are presented as members of a joint

15 criminal enterprise, and this is absurd. But as a man said, if it is

16 absurd, then it cannot be refuted.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, we have heard not very, very much,

18 but some about the actual fighting between HVO and ABiH. Can you tell

19 the Chamber to what extent and at what moment the ABiH attacked the HVO

20 by planes?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that the BH Army

22 attacked by planes.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I did not say that you said it. I ask you

24 whether you know about this. You say no. Thank you.

25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, it is a problem of interpretation, and

Page 8170

1 it is in the transcript, so it is a short-circuit here, I think.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army had helicopters,

3 Judge Trechsel, and it released some explosive devices that way and

4 transferred some of its units in Operation 93, and transferred its units

5 and its commanders.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I'm sure we will hear more about

7 this.

8 Ms. Pinter.

9 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General, in the transcript it was recorded that it was

11 Operation 93. What operation did you mean?

12 A. Neretva-93, I meant to say.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.

14 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

15 Q. The next document is 3D32-1163, and the English, 3D38-0164. The

16 document is dated the 24th of July, 1992. It is signed by

17 Petar Stipetic, the deputy chief of the Main Staff of the HVO for the

18 combat sector, and the document relates to retraining. The document has

19 a handwritten addition, General.

20 A. Yes. General Stipetic sent this to the minister of defence, and

21 the defence minister says, Let Praljak decide. And this is Ms. Slojce's

22 [phoen] handwriting, Mr. Susak's secretary. So I was informed about

23 things like this, and we made our decisions jointly, but you didn't need

24 to think much about it because there was a general position that had been

25 taken, and we just confirmed it, and that it should be continued.

Page 8171

1 Q. In the document, it says that it refers to pilots who, on BH

2 territory, would fly for the defence of that republic. And this

3 assignment was urgent because of the constant need for evacuation and

4 supplies for the Territorial Defence of BiH. So can you tell us why you

5 had this authorisation standing agreement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, the next document is 3D32-1170, and the English is 3D --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm trying to decipher this

9 document. You're giving the go-ahead for three pilots and technicians to

10 come, but did they fly? Did they come by plane?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how they arrived, but

12 they were retrained to fly Antonov-2 type planes, and those planes, well,

13 I don't know whether they purchased one somewhere, but it was the

14 Croatian Air Force that had these freight planes. They're not too big,

15 this type of plane, the Antonov-2. And they mostly flew from

16 Pleso Airport in Zagreb towards the airports that were operational at

17 that time. One was in Coralic, at Bihac. Then there was Tuzla. I know

18 about those two for certain, but I wouldn't like to hazard a guess about

19 the others.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are saying that

21 these Antonovs took off from the Zagreb Airport, and they went to Tuzla,

22 Bihac, Coralic and so on. But did they also do the return trip? Did

23 they also take off from Tuzla, Bihac, in order to go to Zagreb and land

24 in Zagreb?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We would load

Page 8172

1 them up with everything that was required over there; weapons, medical

2 corps material, cigarettes, which are very important in a war, and then

3 they would bring in the wounded over there, and some women and children,

4 or anybody who is sick, and people who the staff had designated as

5 needing to go back to Zagreb.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell us whether these

7 Antonovs were flown by Muslim pilots?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were both; a lot of Croatian

9 pilots, too, who also flew those planes for the requirements and needs of

10 the BH Army.

11 Now, Your Honours, mostly they would fly by night, with their

12 light switched off, and they would come into contact with the airport --

13 well, they would contact the airport just before landing, and then the

14 lights would be quickly switched on. This was all at night. They would

15 land quickly, unload quickly, reload quickly, and fly off, because of

16 course the Serbs targeted the planes, and there were planes that had been

17 shot down.

18 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, following on from Judge Antonetti's question, I'd like

20 to take you back to page 3D32-1161, or in English, 3D38-0162. And I'd

21 like to look at item 2, which speaks about training on the AN-2 type

22 plane, which we have heard is the Antonov plane. So can you tell us the

23 names of the people listed here? Are those Muslim names, Bosniak names,

24 or are they Croats?

25 A. Apart from this man Ante Grigic, the rest are all Muslims. Yes,

Page 8173

1 that's right.

2 Q. Thank you. Now turn the page -- or, rather, turn to 3D32-1170,

3 and the English is 3D38-0173. The document is dated the 4th of January,

4 1993, and it is addressed to Major General Imra Agotic, who was in the

5 Air Defence, and the document is signed by Josip Hrgovic [phoen], and it

6 relates to cargo transport from Coralic Airport. Does this document

7 confirm -- or, rather, would you agree that this document confirms all

8 the things you've told us so far? Have you got anything to add?

9 A. No, just to say that at the end of the year, they drew up a

10 review of what they did. And they said that for the requirements of BiH,

11 there were six flights; and for the TO of BiH, there were twenty-eight

12 flights, sorties, and all the other data mentioned, including the pilots.

13 And then it says at the end that there were 280 flights in the period

14 gone by, 71 over-flight hours. And it says that on the territory of

15 Croatia, 118 passengers were transported and 46 wounded. So that's what

16 I said. That was the purpose of it, to take weapons to them over there

17 and to bring back these people and also BH Army officials, the wounded,

18 or whoever.

19 Q. For the transcript --

20 MR. STRINGER: I apologise for the interruption. Could the

21 general indicate perhaps on the map the locations where these materials

22 were going to, because the font that's used in the English transcript, I

23 can't -- I'm not sure that I can read the name of the airport, and

24 perhaps he could just indicate where Kazin [phoen] or Cazin is located.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's by Bihac, the airport by

Page 8174

1 Bihac, and Tuzla is over here [indicates].

2 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

3 Q. For the transcript, General, let's just state that the document

4 gives a recapitulation summary of transportation for the needs of BiH and

5 for the TO of BiH. And on page 2 of the document we have the names of

6 the crew carrying out the flights and the number of flight hours.

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Fine. Now let's move on to --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, in this document we

10 see that wounded are being transported. I would like to know whether,

11 among these wounded, there are ABiH soldiers, soldiers who were wounded

12 and who are going to be flown to Croatia to be treated in Croatian

13 hospitals.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, never -- never,

15 ever, did we look to see who the wounded were. There were far more

16 BH Army wounded than HVO wounded, because there were far more BH soldiers

17 than there were HVO soldiers. And all those who were transported to the

18 Republic of Croatia, all the ones that we could admit and take in, and

19 we'll see later on that it was more than 10.000 people, we did.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm putting this question to

21 you because I'm trying logically to reintegrate this in this notion of

22 international armed conflict.

23 This document establishes that there were flights between Croatia

24 and Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it also establishes that wounded were flown

25 during these flights, and you're telling us that, according to you, as

Page 8175

1 far as you were concerned, you made no difference between ABiH soldiers

2 and HVO soldiers. However, if ABiH soldiers are wounded, and had been

3 actually wounded by HVO soldiers in the framework of a local conflict,

4 would it be -- is it logical for them to be -- it is logical that they

5 would be sent back to be treated. But if it's an international conflict,

6 is it logical to have Country A to take care of the wounded of the other

7 side that is opposed to it, in an international armed struggle? What can

8 you say about all this?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The war doctrine which was

10 developed over a period of time required the following: that the

11 ammunition to put the opposite side out of action should be done in such

12 a way that there would be far more wounded than killed, because it was

13 considered that a wounded soldier inflicted far greater damage on the

14 enemy side than did a dead soldier. First of all, you have to take them

15 away from the battle-front, which requires additional men. Then costly

16 treatment is required and so on. So modern ammunition was developed to

17 that effect.

18 The Croatian Defence Council, and I personally, and you've

19 already heard this from me, Your Honours, we never -- well, whatever the

20 wounded -- whoever the wounded person was, be he from the BH Army, if we

21 were able to, we would take in the wounded, and you saw this with the

22 example of Mostar. We would always give them aid and assistance. And we

23 heard the testimony here from -- testimony here from SpaBat from August

24 and September of 1993, and I personally took part in that. That is to

25 say, we took in four groups, transported them or that family from Rama.

Page 8176

1 I took them in. Not only did they go to Split, but I also asked that

2 they be granted Croatian citizenship, which they did receive, and so they

3 used the social insurance of the state of Croatia. It paid for them to

4 go to Switzerland. And the Judge said that he knew full well how much

5 medical treatment costs, what medical treatment costs in Switzerland. So

6 not only did we differentiate between the different people, but the

7 BH Army wounded were taken care of in Croatia, given medical treatment in

8 Croatia. And you saw that I used a helicopter on one occasion, and I

9 never flew in a helicopter; not because I was afraid, but because the

10 occasion didn't arise. Anyway, I transported a lady doctor from Mostar.

11 Unfortunately, she died, but we did our best to save her. And there were

12 dozens of examples like that.

13 So never, ever did we make any distinction between people, and we

14 invested great efforts to cater to everyone. And you have seen evidence

15 of that many a time.

16 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now we're going to show a document relating to the Silajdzic

18 family who was transported from Prozor to Split and from there to

19 Switzerland. We have those documents, and we will be presenting them in

20 court, but they haven't been included into this particular book and

21 edition.

22 A. Your Honours, let me say that I never spoke about this in public

23 until I saw the indictment, because I'm ashamed to speak of things like

24 that. The fact that they forced me to talk about this, I feel shame for

25 having done so.

Page 8177

1 May I have a break, please? May we have a break?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a 20-minute break,

3 and we will resume at 12.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

7 I have a request to make with Mr. Kovacic. Paragraph 52 of your

8 pre-trial brief, you mentioned a joint statement made by Tudjman and

9 Izetbegovic on September 14th, 1993. And according to this statement, it

10 says, and I quote: "Conflicts among the units of the ABiH and the HVO."

11 And in the footnote, you referred to the Exhibit D50 in the Kordic case.

12 I would like to know exactly what is the exact number of this statement.

13 I believe that it must have been already integrated into your evidence

14 list.

15 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the statement has a

16 3D number. It's already in evidence. General Praljak's Defence team

17 wants to talk about that statement when we come to the year 1993, since

18 therefore we have been following a certain chronology of events.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, so I'll keep this in

20 mind.

21 Let's resume.

22 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. General, please go to 3D32-1173. In English, it is 3D38-0176.

24 The annex refers to the logistical centres of the BH Army which were

25 established in the Republic of Croatia. The number of documents -- the

Page 8178

1 total number of documents in the possession of the Defence is 834, and

2 the annex contains a total of 41 documents about that subject.

3 The following document I would like to discuss is 3D32-1174, and

4 in English it is 3D38-0177. The date on the document is 12 July 1993.

5 The document was signed by the deputy minister of the government in

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina. General, could you please tell us what you know

7 about the document and what --

8 A. Well, you again have some crystal-clear documents in front of

9 you. The conflict already is underway, on the 12th of July there was a

10 conflict, and I'm always going to call it the attack of the BH Army in

11 Central Bosnia. This was after the 30th of June and the incidents in

12 Mostar, after the events that took place in Mostar on the 9th of May,

13 after the events in Konjic and so on and so forth. We're talking about

14 the 12th of July, 1993, and here the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

15 says that it issued a decision in order to perform duties and tasks from

16 the framework of activities of the Staff of the Supreme Command of the

17 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina outside the territory

18 of the republic itself, and the following persons are appointed. In the

19 Military and Economic Representative Office in