Page 47961
1 Wednesday, 9 December 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the
7 case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Prlic et al. Thank you, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today is Wednesday. Let me
13 first greet you, Witness, and I'll greet the accused, the Defence
14 counsel, Ms. West, and Mr. Scott, and the rest of their team, and my
15 greetings to all the people assisting us.
16 The Praljak Defence has the floor for their questions.
17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,
18 we should like to ask that you allow General Praljak to cross-examine
19 this witness, since we're dealing with questions that are limited to the
20 various locations around Mostar and in Mostar, and the witness mentioned
21 some of them, like Bijelo Polje and others. And as you know, Praljak is
22 from the region, so he knows all those places very well, and in that
23 sense has special knowledge of the subject. So it will be far easier for
24 the two of them to communicate.
25 Just to inform you, we have 15 minutes, roughly, plus 5 minutes
Page 47962
1 from the Prlic Defence. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
4 Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
5 WITNESS: BOZO PERIC
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Praljak:
8 Q. [Interpretation] And good morning to you, too, Mr. Peric.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I'm going to show you some photographs first and some videotapes.
11 But before I do that, would you answer this question: In the northern
12 districts of Mostar, Vrapcici, and Bijelo Polje, from the time that the
13 war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, 1995, to the present
14 day, has any -- have any important buildings been built, or roads, or
15 factories, or dams, or high-rise buildings? So during all that time, has
16 anything essentially changed in the area?
17 A. General, sir, after the war in 1996 and from that time onwards,
18 along the M-17 road a bridge has been rebuilt which was destroyed across
19 the Bijela River
20 And as for the various buildings, only a market-place has been built,
21 three or four supermarkets or market-places.
22 Q. Mr. Peric, we haven't seen one another for quite some time, and
23 I'm sure, if the Judges would allow us, we'd have a friendly chat. But
24 over the next 20 minutes, I should like to ask you to just answer my
25 questions, because we're not really interested in market-places and the
Page 47963
1 like.
2 Now, the Bijela Bridge
3 document and saw that the BH Army had taken control of the bridge in
4 April 1993. Now, to the best of your knowledge, up until the end of the
5 conflict and the Washington Accords, did it ever lose control of the
6 bridge? That's my first question.
7 A. No.
8 Q. And do you know that one section of the bridge could be used
9 until October 1993, when we won't say who and how the other half of the
10 bridge was destroyed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. One lane was in order; the other wasn't.
13 Now look at 3D --
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May we have 3D03789 put up
15 on our screens, please. 3D03789 is the number, and 3D43-1385, which is
16 the last of the three photographs I've provided. And I didn't manage to
17 go through these photographs with the previous witness because of lack of
18 time. So it's not this one; it's the next one. This is 789, that's
19 right, but may I have 1385 as the next photograph, and those are the last
20 digits. 3D03789, and the number of the photograph itself is 3D43-1385.
21 What can I do now? 3D43-1385. Here it is, yes.
22 Q. Is that something that we call the Bijela Bridge
23 Witness?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell me, on the assumption that the bridge was destroyed,
Page 47964
1 on the assumption, I say, this road going the round-about route, and it
2 was constructed when the bridge was constructed, is it open to traffic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you mark the bridge and the road? You can put a "1" by the
5 bridge and a "2" for the road running down this bay, around this bay.
6 THE REGISTRAR: We have a little problem with the SMART board, so
7 if there's a hard copy that you have in your possession, we can use that.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I had hoped, at
9 the beginning of this trial, that we would have large maps to put up on
10 an easel for this trial, but there we go.
11 MR. KOVACIC: If the Usher would be so kind to take the map from
12 Mr. Praljak.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And just take a look at where the road to the left leads, and was
15 that open to cars? It wasn't an asphalt road, but could cars pass that
16 way?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So number 1 for the Bijela Bridge
19 going around the bay; and number 3, the other road to the left in the
20 direction of the upper left-hand corner.
21 A. [Marks]
22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The witness can draw around the
23 road using his felt-tip pen, so we can see it properly. That's right.
24 And then place a number there, please, Witness.
25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
Page 47965
1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now, where does that road lead to, towards Jasenjani or where?
3 A. To Glogova.
4 Q. Glogova, that's correct. Now place your signature and the date
5 on that map.
6 A. [Marks]
7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, might I
8 request that you take into account the fact that we're now dealing with
9 maps and it's a rather lengthy process, so as far as my time goes,
10 perhaps you could be indulgent.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have an
12 IC number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
14 Page 3 of document 3D03789, as marked by the witness, shall be
15 given Exhibit IC01148. Thank you, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next I'd like 3D03791
17 pulled up, please. 3D03791, the first of those maps. 001 are the last
18 digits.
19 Q. Witness, what do we see here, just briefly?
20 A. A panorama of the northern access to Mostar.
21 Q. Very well.
22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next map, please, 002.
23 Q. Could you mark "Vrapcici" and "Bijelo Polje" with arrows,
24 number 1 for Vrapcici and 2 for Bijelo Polje?
25 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, General. May I remind you again that
Page 47966
1 we have a problem with the SMART Board. So if you have a hard copy, we
2 can place it on the ELMO and we can mark it. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Bozo, have you got a copy of that picture?
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give my copy to the
6 witness, and that can be put on the ELMO. It has to be put on the ELMO.
7 There's a technical problem, you see. No? Oh, it's okay now. Fine.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Could you now mark Vrapcici with an arrow, and another one for
10 Bijelo Polje? So number 1, Vrapcici; number 2, Bijelo Polje.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, but you can't see the whole of Bijelo Polje.
14 Q. That's fine, thank you. Now indicate
15 Bradina [as interpreted] Hill.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And place a "3" there.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you. And now we need just your signature there.
20 A. [Marks]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, Registrar,
22 please.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 3D44-0002, as marked by the
24 witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01149. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next map, please. The same
Page 47967
1 number, but now it's 003. Here it is.
2 Q. Witness, my question is as follows: Behind Gradina Hill, yeah,
3 Gradina Hill, towards Streliste, you can see that on this map, was there
4 a road that was open, and does it still exist today; and if so, would you
5 mark it on the map, please, and put a number 1 by it?
6 A. It existed before, it exists today, and it's open to all types of
7 vehicles.
8 Q. Just mark it so we can see it.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And your signature.
11 A. [Marks]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, please.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour
14 Judge Antonetti.
15 Q. Could you show us where the road emerges on the other side of
16 that hill there?
17 A. It goes upwards, where we conducted training sessions during the
18 targeting.
19 Q. And towards Vrapcici?
20 A. You can't see that on this map.
21 Q. Never mind. Just show us the general direction.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you. Just draw the arrow down towards Vrapcici, behind the
24 hill where the road descends.
25 A. [Marks]
Page 47968
1 Q. That's right.
2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And may I have an
3 IC number for these maps, now, please.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
6 3D44-0003, as marked by the witness, shall be given
7 Exhibit IC01150. Thank you, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Is it correct, sir, that during the war, protected from any
10 possible HVO positions, both civilians and members of the BH Army could
11 pass through that way?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Now may we have the next
15 map, which is 0005. Yes, that's the picture.
16 Q. What do you see on that image, Witness? Do you see Hum Hill, for
17 example?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Put a number 1 by Hum Hill.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. My question to you is this: The BH Army positions on the left
22 bank of the Neretva River
23 they mirror images; that is to say, do the two sides see the same thing?
24 What the BH Army sees is what the HVO sees? You have hills on one side
25 and hills on the other side; is that right?
Page 47969
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, you were in Mostar. After the two sides separated in
3 Mostar, could you, from any of the HVO positions, see the Neretva banks
4 controlled by the BH Army from any point?
5 A. Do you mean Mostar or the broader region around Mostar?
6 Q. Only that part of Mostar that was under the supervision and
7 control of the BH Army, not what we can see from Hum Hill to the left and
8 right.
9 A. You couldn't see the Neretva River
10 point at all, from the buildings or anywhere else.
11 Q. Thank you. So put your signature to that photograph, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And may I have an
14 IC number.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. A copy of 3D44-0005, as marked
17 by the witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01151. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And now under the same number, 3D -- it's still 3D, and it's
20 03791, that's the general number, and the picture itself is 0011.
21 Mr. Peric, use a number 1 to mark what you see as the electric
22 plant here.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And tell us which one that is.
25 A. That is the hydroelectric power-plant of Mostar.
Page 47970
1 Q. Thank you. Can you mark the road to Sarajevo, please, the main
2 road, number 2.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. If the Neretva River
5 that be? The left-hand side of the plant, after the clashes with the
6 BH Army, whose possession was it in throughout the clashes?
7 A. [Marks] it was under the HVO, as far as the dam. It was
8 throughout the clashes, as far as the dam to the north. The houses you
9 can see over there were BH Army-held. The village is called Rastani.
10 Q. Move along the Neretva and then the left-hand side of the river,
11 what about that side? Was that BH Army-controlled?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That's what I wanted to know. No, the other side. That was the
14 HVO.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And then on the other side, who controlled that?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Everything that we can see to the right of the road and all that,
19 after the clashes on the 30th of June, who controlled that area?
20 A. The BH Army.
21 Q. And now 0012. Please sign the map.
22 A. [Marks]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 3D44-0011, as marked by the
25 witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01152. Thank you, Your Honours.
Page 47971
1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 0012, please.
2 Q. Witness, what about the front part of this image that we see;
3 isn't that the access road to Vrapcici, which begins when
4 Bradina [as interpreted] stops?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, point out the road that is not the M-17, which goes behind
7 Gradina Hill. And then you see that stone over there? The colour
8 photographs are much better than the black-and-white ones. I'm not sure
9 why we don't have colour photographs. Can you mark that with a number 1,
10 please?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And then the other road that you see over there, north of the
13 houses here -- no, no, no, here. You have a look at the map, and look at
14 the road. Oh, right, we have a colour photograph now. It's perfect.
15 Look at your screen. There's a better view there. The screen.
16 A. Yes, I see it, I see it.
17 Q. All right. Mark it, please, the road that you saw.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Fantastic. Number 1 for the first road, number 2 for the other.
20 Your signature, please, and an IC number.
21 A. [Marks]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please, Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: 3D44-0012, as marked by the witness, shall be
24 given Exhibit IC01153. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 0018, please, our next map.
Page 47972
1 Q. It's a photograph facing north, the access road to Bijelo Polje.
2 My question: Parallel or not to the main road to Sarajevo, M-17, are
3 there not many roads such as this one? Is it not possible to reach each
4 single house in Vrapcici and Bijelo Polje by car?
5 A. Indeed, it is.
6 Q. Sign the map, please.
7 A. [Marks]
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And could I have an IC
9 number, please.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Actually, there's no reason to sign this map,
11 because it has not been marked in any way. There's no damage.
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Put a number 1 on the road, then, and tell us roughly where this
14 road is headed to.
15 A. [Marks] Kuti Livac, north of Mostar, and then on to --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear anything that
17 the witness said because the accused is chafing with his documents
18 against the microphone, the microphone creating too much noise.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [No interpretation]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It goes north of Mostar and ends up
22 right on the way out of the Bijelo Polje depression, just outside Prenj
23 and Salahovac.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we have an IC number,
Page 47973
1 please.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 3D44-0018, as marked by the
4 witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01154. Thank you, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'll be showing a
6 video-clip from Google now.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't hear the number
8 because the witness coughed.
9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D03793. Could that be
10 played, please.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is this the power-plant in Mostar that you indicated in the other
14 photograph, Mr. Peric?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where exactly is Vrapcici?
17 A. To the right, in the same direction that the image is moving.
18 Q. Put a number 1 there. Oh, I see, you can't put a number 1 there.
19 All right, let's move on, then. How many parallel roads are
20 there? Many - right? - next to M-17.
21 A. Yes, quite many of those.
22 Q. All right. Let's move on, please.
23 We are now in Potoci.
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Move on, please. Move on,
25 please. Was that the end? Now the other one, please.
Page 47974
1 Q. Now the continuation, sir. The Bijela Bridge
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please indicate the roads that one can take in the area, and tell
5 us where they take you to.
6 A. How am I going to show that on this Google imaging device?
7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] All right, all right.
8 He'll describe everything in the end. Just let the map glide on. What
9 can I do about this? Yes, yes, everything can be seen there.
10 Q. Can you see the road to Glogova on this map?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it an asphalt road?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can cars take that road as well?
15 A. Yes, they can.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on. Does this move on to
17 Jablanica?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Look at the road to the left. Is that an asphalt road?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Any cars there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] That's as much as I have
25 on this.
Page 47975
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just interject a question.
2 Witness, have you, yourself, driven a car over any of these roads
3 or all of them?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have taken most of these roads.
5 But when I look at the photograph that I have here, the northern-most
6 section is one that I've never taken.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And yet you say that it is negotiable with cars?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about what the general
9 asked. Is it negotiable? I said, Yes.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And what kind of cars; any car, lorries, big
11 trucks?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All-terrain vehicles, jeep
13 vehicles.
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That means, negatively, not a normal car with
15 two-wheel drive, and even less a normal truck or lorry for transportation
16 of goods?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trucks, but not the really heavy
18 ones. The ones that you, in Europe
19 The TAM
20 long-distance trucks could not take that road. A tractor with a trailer
21 could take that road as well. A small Mercedes, a really nice, expensive
22 one, could never take that road.
23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But they would have to be four-wheel drive?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I was trying to
25 say, all-terrain vehicles or TAM
Page 47976
1 three and a half tons; tractors with a trailer, also, up to three or four
2 tons.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, to be
5 perfectly safe, the other video that we last saw was 3D03794, which is
6 the section between Bijela -- the Bijela Bridge
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please listen
8 carefully to my question. This is an important question, and I want to
9 be sure that you understand the question. And I will listen to your
10 answer carefully.
11 It seems that the M-17 was sometimes under the fire of the HVO in
12 Rastani. At least that's what we've been told. This being the case,
13 could you tell us whether a Muslim civilian who would want to leave
14 East Mostar by foot, be it a child, a woman, a man, or BH Army soldier --
15 so I would like to know whether this person could take the pass that we
16 have seen on this Google imaging device, so could it take these paths
17 that we've seen from Jablanica -- going to Jablanica --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- without being hit by HVO
20 fire?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was certainly possible for no
22 one to be harmed by infantry weapons. As for artillery, no one was
23 entirely safe from artillery weapons in Bosnia and Herzegovina. As for
24 the infantry, weapons that the HVO was using, it was impossible to see
25 those people from there; therefore, they couldn't be targeted. The road
Page 47977
1 between Mostar and Jablanica was a safe one for them. It wasn't a very
2 comfortable road, like it is today, but it was safe, and one could take
3 it with no trouble at all and still get there.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question on this
5 topic.
6 Could you tell us whether a civilian or a BH Army soldier could
7 leave East Mostar to go to Jablanica?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the BH Army control, they
9 could have. I'm not sure if they actually took advantage of that, but
10 the possibility was there. Each of the civilians who wanted to leave
11 were free to leave. I'm not sure if their own military authorities
12 allowed them to, though.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 General Praljak, you have used up 28 minutes. You must finish,
15 because Ms. West has two hours, there might be some redirect, and we're
16 running short of time. I'm only putting essential questions to this
17 witness. Otherwise, I just refrain from putting questions.
18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it would be
19 fair to at least grant a total of three minutes because of the technical
20 difficulty experienced during the examination. It wasn't our fault.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have three minutes, so use
22 them wisely.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
24 Q. First question: Who controlled the access to Dreznica right
25 across from the Bijelo Bridge
Page 47978
1 A. The BH Army.
2 Q. Secondly, you said a Mercedes couldn't negotiate that road. What
3 about a tractor? What about a cargo truck up to four tons or, for
4 example, a Renault 4?
5 A. I've listed all of those, and the answer is yes.
6 Q. Thirdly, would it not be an obligation for the army to maintain a
7 road that was important for them?
8 A. It goes without saying.
9 Q. My last question: You were asked yesterday by Mr. Stojic's
10 counsel: Did the Serbs target Mostar and the general area? And you
11 said, As they saw fit, or, As they liked. Sometimes they liked us better
12 and sometimes the other side, something to that effect.
13 Sir, throughout the war, as far as you know, did the Serbs target
14 the left-hand riverbank and the right-hand riverbank of the Neretva River
15 and the general Mostar area whenever they liked?
16 Yes, there's some sort of music playing. I'm not sure what it
17 is. I have no idea what that is.
18 Were the Serbs, in fact, not firing whenever they liked, and,
19 sure enough, they weren't short of ammunition, were they?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What about after the clashes between the HVO and the BH Army?
22 Did they not continue to, A, aid the BH Army and, B, target BH positions
23 in and around Mostar all at the same time?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Mr. Peric, I have no
Page 47979
1 further questions. I thank you for coming here and answering these
2 questions.
3 Your Honours, I thank you very much.
4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just set
5 the record straight, General Praljak asked a question: Under whose
6 control was the territory near the Bijela Bridge? The question and
7 answer were recorded on page 17, line 11. The question misstates "across
8 the territory," and there was no mention of the Bijela Bridge
9 this is a very important issue, and I think we should understand what
10 exactly the general asked.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this will be short. I
12 didn't want to do this, but because of the appeals judgement in the
13 Dragomir Milosevic case, I have to put this question to you.
14 Let me ask the Usher to put on the screen 3D44-0001, the first
15 map we have in this document.
16 Sir, we have this map on the screen. You see Mostar. Do you see
17 Mostar?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I see hills on this
20 map. Could you tell us whether there were any Serbian positions on these
21 hills?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. All these hills that you can
23 see, there were VRS forces there.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're telling us,
25 and this is now on the transcript, that the Serbian forces were
Page 47980
1 positioned on the hills that we see on this picture. At the foot of this
2 hill is Mostar; is that it?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does this mean that the Serbian
5 forces could fire with artillery on Mostar from these hills, either from
6 Mostar east -- on East Mostar or on West Mostar?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could open fire on any part.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I have no other
9 questions.
10 Ms. West.
11 MS. WEST: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,
12 Your Honours. Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
13 The Prosecution is ready. If we could just have a moment to
14 distribute the binders.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the meanwhile, Ms. Alaburic,
16 in order to save time, we've just been told that next week's witness is
17 sick and will not be able to appear. Therefore, there will be no hearing
18 next week?
19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was informed
20 yesterday that our witness is not feeling well and that he won't be able
21 to come in, so I tried to contact some of our future witnesses, ones that
22 were scheduled for January next year. But, unfortunately, yesterday I
23 wasn't able to have somebody agree to come in on Thursday or Friday at
24 such short notice. So for all intents and purposes, we'll be left
25 without a witness next week.
Page 47981
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is the last
2 hearing for 2009, then.
3 Ms. West, you have the floor.
4 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. West:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Peric.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. My name is Kim West. I'm a lawyer with the Office of the
9 Prosecution. I'm going to ask you questions this morning, and hopefully
10 we'll finish today.
11 And I'd like to start where we left off in regard to the area
12 north of East Mostar, and in particular the roads that Mr. Praljak asked
13 you about. I'm going to read to you some testimony from former
14 witnesses, from Milan Gorjanc, who was the first Petkovic Defence
15 witness. He was asked about this very issue, and I'm going to read to
16 you what he said about the area north of Mostar.
17 MS. WEST: And this is from transcript page 46145. It's lines 5
18 through 10.
19 Q. And he said --
20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I'd
21 just like us to bear in mind that Witness Gorjanc was an expert witness,
22 not a fact witness, so he's really not somebody who, in the 1990s, was in
23 the area himself. So please bear that in mind and how far his testimony
24 is valuable with respect to the facts that we're dealing with.
25 MS. WEST: I thank Ms. Alaburic for those comments, and I hope
Page 47982
1 you will bear that in mind when you consider the IC list for Mr. Gorjanc
2 because that's the very argument that the Prosecution makes as to why
3 those exhibits should be excluded.
4 But, nonetheless, the testimony of Mr. Gorjanc, in which he says:
5 "To the north, where the main reserves of the BH Army were, there
6 were two roads leading. One was down the Neretva River Valley
7 most probably under fire, under artillery fire, HVO artillery fire. The
8 other route took one across a mountainous area, the western slopes of
9 Mount Prenj
10 by the HVO."
11 Q. Sir, in regard to his comments, he talks about two roads, the
12 first being the road down the Neretva River Valley
13 me that that's the M-17 through the valley?
14 A. The main road -- the main asphalt road in Bosnia-Herzegovina is
15 that road running through the Neretva River Valley
16 So the M-17 was used before the war, it was used during the war, and it's
17 used today. So I see nothing contentious there.
18 Now, were there any other parallel roads? Yes, there were
19 several, not just one.
20 Q. Okay. Let's go back to my question, which was: Is the
21 Neretva River Valley the M-17? I understand your answer to be, Yes. Is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And so when you were answering questions from General Praljak in
25 regard to the Bijelo Bay
Page 47983
1 and then you went -- you continued on, is that the -- strike that.
2 When you were speaking about the Bijelo Bay
3 bridge was out, and so you drew a line around the bay and then continued
4 on, is that bridge and that main road, the Neretva River Valley
5 M-17?
6 A. Yes, you can see the M-17 clearly. There are two or three
7 curves, but otherwise it's a straight road.
8 Q. Okay. So I understand that your answer to that question is, Yes.
9 Then would you agree with Mr. Gorjanc that the M-17, through most of this
10 period of time, was under HVO artillery fire?
11 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that.
12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but
13 Witness Gorjanc never said anything of the kind. He was asked -- Gorjanc
14 was asked for just one section of the road, and Witness Gorjanc clearly
15 let it be known that it was questionable -- that his information was
16 questionable as to what could be done and what couldn't. Witness Gorjanc
17 said that theoretically you could target a certain region with the
18 artillery, theoretically. He didn't say that something was under fire or
19 not. And Witness Gorjanc doesn't know what the BH Army and HVO positions
20 were.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, in order to make
22 sure that we don't have these useless objections, because we know exactly
23 what was said by each and every one and we spent hours -- hundreds of
24 hours, thousands of hours, pouring over the case; so in order to make
25 sure that we don't run into objections, when you refer to someone's
Page 47984
1 testimony, say, He said this on this page. And read the -- read what the
2 witness said word by word. That way, there's no objection. And then put
3 your question. But as you saw, systematically the Defence raises its
4 it's feet whenever it sees a weakness in your questions, and we waste
5 time.
6 As Judges, we are here to control how the hearing is conducted.
7 We have to make sure that no time is wasted. So my piece of advice is to
8 quote word by word what the witness said. That way, we can no objection
9 from the Defence. Otherwise, you know, if they object, it's an abuse of
10 procedure, and then they would be sanctioned. So they won't object if
11 you quote verbatim.
12 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 And as I said earlier, it's transcript page 46145, lines 5
14 through 10, and Mr. Gorjanc said:
15 "To the north, where the main reserves of the BH Army were, there
16 were two roads leading. One was down the Neretva River Valley
17 most probably under artillery fire, HVO artillery fire. The other route
18 took one across a mountainous area, the western slopes of Mount Prenj
19 on towards Jablanica. That route was not under fire by the HVO."
20 And that is the quote from Mr. Gorjanc.
21 Q. Mr. Peric, I now want to talk about the other route and one that
22 you talked about as well. You spoke earlier about an access road after
23 the Bradina [sic] Hill. You said there was an access road from Vrapcici
24 which begins where Bradina [sic] stops. Do you remember that testimony
25 15 minutes ago?
Page 47985
1 A. I don't think I mentioned Bradina. Bradina is between -- lies
2 between Sarajevo
3 Q. Well, let me share with you some testimony from the
4 Petkovic Defence's second witness. This is Witness Bozo Pavlovic, and
5 speaking about this very same subject matter. This is transcript 46866
6 from November 16th, line 17 through 25, and this is a question from
7 Judge Antonetti. And the question was:
8 "You are saying that the M-17 was under fire or was exposed to
9 fire. Very well. But was there another road that would not have been
10 under HVO fire that could have been used?"
11 And the witness's answer was:
12 "I've just said, Your Honours, that I think that there was a road
13 from the Zalik neighbourhood towards Vrapcici."
14 Judge Antonetti:
15 "You confirm this?
16 The witness:
17 "That's the other road."
18 Mr. Peric, are you familiar with this road, a road from Zalik
19 towards Vrapcici?
20 A. Yes, I am familiar with that. But you made a mistake. You said
21 "Bradina," not "Gradina." Bradina is another hill towards Sarajevo
22 there's Bradina and Gradina. And that is why I wasn't sure what you were
23 asking. So it's Gradina with a "G" and not Bradina with a "B."
24 Q. Thank you for that. And the Gradina Hill that you spoke about
25 earlier, is this hill located in the vicinity of this road from the Zalik
Page 47986
1 neighbourhood towards Vrapcici?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And so when you answered questions earlier from Mr. Praljak, it
4 was this road that began in this neighbourhood that went to Vrapcici of
5 which you were speaking; correct?
6 A. I was speaking about -- well, answering General Praljak's
7 questions whether there was a road from the shooting range downwards that
8 you could communicate. So this was sheltered with -- by Gradina Hill.
9 You couldn't see it because it was sheltered.
10 Q. I would like you to look at this road, and I would like you to
11 look at your binder. You have one right in front of you. If you can go
12 to P11145, and this is a map. And I believe everyone will have it in
13 colour. 11145, and this exhibit has two parts. There's both a map and
14 then a second piece of paper with it as well.
15 MS. WEST: And, Mr. Usher, if I can ask you to take the map out
16 and take that second piece of paper so the witness can work with both
17 pieces of paper. Thank you. Very good.
18 Q. Sir, I think we all understand that you're very familiar with
19 this area, so I'd like to tell you that this is a map of the Mostar area
20 and north. And the light blue line beginning in the Zalik neighbourhood
21 that Witness Pavlovic spoke about is depicted on this map. And he said
22 that this road went from Zalik to Vrapcici and on to Jablanica, or this
23 route did that. I'd like to ask you some questions about this.
24 And for everyone -- to help everyone understand, and for you to
25 understand as well, my questions are going to mirror the piece of paper
Page 47987
1 that's located with this map, and we're going to start in Zalik.
2 Would you agree with me, sir, that the first 500 metres of this
3 route out of Zalik towards Vrapcici is a tarmac road and that a truck and
4 a car could use that road?
5 A. I know what you're asking me, but I can't find my way on this
6 map, where Zalik is and so on. It's too detailed for me to be able to
7 find my way.
8 Q. Nonetheless, sir, you're familiar with the area, correct, from
9 your own experience?
10 A. Yes, yes, I am familiar, but there are too many details on this
11 map, it's too dense.
12 Q. Well, then let's focus on my questions. In regard to this road
13 out of Zalik towards Vrapcici, would you agree with me that the first
14 500 metres is a road -- a tarmac road that you can put a car on; a car
15 can easily run on the first 500 metres?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But the second 500 metres, at least during the period of 1993,
18 the tarmac road becomes a narrow path which you cannot put a car or a
19 truck on; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then the next 500 metres of that road becomes a very, very
22 narrow path, and it's particularly along a cliff, which ropes were used
23 to secure and support the users, and actually -- strike that. That ropes
24 were used to help people climb up. So it would be the next 500 metres?
25 A. As to that stretch, I can't say. But it's called a donkey track
Page 47988
1 and -- or a horse track, and it's wide enough for a horse, bearing a
2 load, to pass by. And there are paths and tracks like that all over the
3 hills there.
4 Q. The next 18 kilometres of this road from Zalik to Vrapcici, now
5 this -- you might be able to see this on the map. This is the road
6 through Vrapcici. Do you see that along the light blue line?
7 A. Yes, I can see.
8 Q. And Kuli Livac? Excuse my pronunciation. That's the next
9 village on that blue line?
10 A. Yes, it's my village; I know it well.
11 Q. You were born there; correct? Okay. And as we continue up that
12 blue line, we go through a number of more villages, Potoci, and it will
13 continue on all the way to Lojpur. Now, this part of this road is
14 18 kilometres, and it's asphalted. And you can -- as you were saying
15 earlier, you can use a truck on this part of the road, correct, or cars
16 on this part of the road?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. But once we get all the way up to Lojpur, L-o-j-p-u-r, and we can
19 see this on the map, once we get there, going forward, the next
20 20 kilometres, would you agree with me, is a very difficult mountain
21 path, and it's only accessible by foot; by fit, trained people; that the
22 elderly and the maybe young children would have difficulty going on this
23 particular 20 kilometres? Would you agree that's correct?
24 A. No, I can't.
25 Q. Have you ever been on this part?
Page 47989
1 A. The village of Lojpuri
2 It's in Bosnia
3 Q. Sir, if you look, sir, at the map, and look on the blue line, and
4 if you look at the area that says "Lojpur," can you find that?
5 A. Lojpur is one thing, Lojpuri is another. They are two different
6 villages, and Lojpuri is not in Herzegovina
7 Q. So if you go to the map and you look for the village that's
8 spelled L-o-j-p-u-r - and I think you can find it; and if you can't,
9 I can help you. Do you see that there?
10 A. Lojpur [Indicates].
11 Q. I see that you're pointing to it right now. Do you see that,
12 sir?
13 A. [No verbal response]
14 Q. You have to verbally say, Yes.
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. At that point, going north on this light blue line, would you
17 agree with me that the next -- the following 20 kilometres is a very
18 difficult mountain path, would you agree with that, where no cars can go?
19 A. I don't agree that it's impassable over that length. A much
20 shorter distance was impassable, as far as I remember. The other one was
21 from the village of Glogova
22 asphalt road again, the other side. Now, I've never been that way
23 myself.
24 Q. All right. Do I understand that you've never been on this path;
25 is that right?
Page 47990
1 A. From Glogova to Glogosnica, no. But from the village that you've
2 mentioned, Lojpuri, is the village of Ravno
3 I did go that way by car, a small car, a Golf-type car, but a bus could
4 go that way, too, a big one.
5 Q. Okay. And when I asked you whether it was a very difficult path,
6 you said that:
7 "I don't agree that it's impassable over that length. A much
8 shorter distance was impassable."
9 So you would agree with me there is a distance that is impassable
10 to cars, whether it be 20 kilometres or less?
11 A. I can agree only from Glogova to Glogosnica, that part of the
12 road as being impassable for large -- to large vehicles.
13 Q. Fine. Let's talk about Glogosnica, and that would be the next
14 2 kilometres. It's correct that is an asphalt road that cars can use;
15 right?
16 A. It's a road which took you from Jablanica to that place,
17 Glogosnica, and that road is an asphalt road from Donja Jablanica.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the interest of time,
19 Witness, do you know what the jeep is, since you were a soldier?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excellent. So my question will
22 be very simple. Using a jeep, no matter what the state of the road may
23 be, it was possible to go from Mostar to Jablanica? You see, that's all.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the conflict in 1993, it
25 was possible. When the conflicts broke out with the BH Army on the
Page 47991
1 30th of June, 1993, for a period of time you could not go there in a
2 jeep. You had to leave one vehicle and move into another vehicle and
3 then continue on your journey.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why was it not possible?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't possible because during
6 that time they hadn't capacitated that road for car traffic.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as I understood it, the
8 whole way shown to us by Ms. West was a part that was under BH Army
9 control. Wasn't it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was completely under their
11 control, deep into their territory.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So completely under their
13 control. Assume I am a BH Army soldier. I get on board a jeep in
14 East Mostar. Can I go to Jablanica through -- using these roads or
15 paths?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could go that way just for the
17 first few months, and then you had to go a certain distance on foot and
18 then get into another car, another vehicle. Now, when this road was
19 joined up, then you didn't have to do that anymore.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that the answer was
22 translated properly on page 30, line 21. The witness said:
23 "You could pass by on that road, but for the first few months..."
24 And then the sentence continues. This way, it would appear that
25 you could just pass through during the first few months.
Page 47992
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me return to my
2 question, and listen carefully, please.
3 The part of the road that was shown by Ms. West, was it under
4 BH Army control?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Second question: I am a
7 BH Army soldier. I get into a jeep in East Mostar. Can I, using the
8 roads or paths controlled by the BH Army, get to Jablanica?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the first few months of the
10 conflict, that is to say, from June, I think, until August, you couldn't
11 go that way in the same jeep. Afterwards, you could, you could go that
12 whole distance in one jeep without having to cross into something else.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why could I not drive the same
14 jeep all the way through?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there was a small section
16 which was impassable to jeeps and larger vehicles, so you had to go a
17 distance on foot and then continue in another vehicle on your way to
18 Jablanica.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
20 Please proceed.
21 MS. WEST:
22 Q. And, sir, according to your testimony, there was a second section
23 as well that was impassable to vehicles; correct? You had described it
24 earlier. I said it was 20 kilometres, but you said it was less. So
25 there was a second part that was impassable; correct?
Page 47993
1 A. The part that I know was the shortest segment, a kilometre and a
2 half, up to two perhaps. I'm not positive about the length.
3 Q. Sir, look again at the map, and please look for the part that
4 General Praljak spoke to you about, the Bijelo Bay. Do you see that on
5 the map?
6 A. I can't see anything here.
7 MS. WEST: Your Honour, may I approach the witness? Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course.
9 MS. WEST:
10 Q. And, sir, now do you see the Bijelo Bay
11 General Praljak about?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And through that bay, you see a black line. That represents the
14 M-17 bridge, right, the Bijelo Bridge
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you indicated that there was a period of time where that
17 bridge was down, and you could go around that area and still go north.
18 But for the purposes of this map, would you agree with me, at least, that
19 that black line going through that area is the M-17?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Can you circle the area of the Bijelo Bay, please?
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And can you initial this map and date it, please, or sign it and
24 date it?
25 A. [Marks]
Page 47994
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you want an IC number?
2 MS. WEST: Please.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, P11145, as marked by the witness,
5 shall be given Exhibit IC01155. Thank you, Your Honours.
6 MS. WEST:
7 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on to a different subject.
8 And you had spoken about the morning of May 9th when you were at
9 the HVO headquarters, and you indicated that you heard shooting. And
10 this is page 50 of the daily transcript, and I'm summarising: That you
11 ran out to the -- in a hall, and there were two other duty officers
12 there; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that morning, you called Petkovic. You couldn't reach him in
15 his car, so then you called Grude; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You also said, on page 51-52, that you telephoned the duty
18 officer in the South-Eastern Command, and he told you that the ABiH had
19 attacked; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on page 61, you said all three duty officers called, and I
22 quote:
23 "... all those people whom we were able to reach by phone."
24 Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 47995
1 Q. And it's true that you said there was an unwritten rule that
2 everyone should come in, and within an hour a number of people were
3 coming in to the headquarters; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So, Mr. Peric, would you agree with me that that morning, on
6 May 9th, there was definitely information flowing among people? There
7 were a lot of people there, and you were all talking, and at least you
8 and the two other duty officers were making several phone calls. Would
9 that accurately describe the morning of May 9th?
10 A. It's true I made some phone calls. It's true people came. They
11 were probably woken up by the sounds of shooting, just as I was.
12 Q. Nonetheless -- strike that. You also testified that you had no
13 knowledge, and this is the term Ms. Alaburic used -- she said
14 "evacuations." You had no knowledge of the evacuations going on. Is
15 that your testimony, is sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm going to read to you some testimony from another witness in
18 this case. This is Zlatan Buljko, and this is transcript 19845,
19 beginning on --
20 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please, just a
21 minute. Objection.
22 As far as I remember, Witness Zlatan Buljko was supposed to be
23 back for cross-examination, but then the OTP didn't call him. They
24 dropped him. At this very minute, I can't find the transcript reference,
25 but I will do my best if you'd like me to.
Page 47996
1 MS. WEST: Mr. President, whether --
2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is entirely
3 true. I would just like to join Ms. Tomanovic's objection, and I think
4 all the other Defence teams agree.
5 [Overlapping speakers]
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter understood nothing because two
7 speakers were talking at the same time. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it is true that he did not
9 complete his testimony, the OTP has nevertheless a document, which is the
10 statement that we have in front of us, that can be used to test the
11 credibility of the witness. That's all. That's the rule.
12 Do ask your question.
13 Yes, Ms. Tomanovic.
14 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the Prosecutor is trying
15 to use the transcript of a testimony -- of the testimony of that witness
16 and not the statement. At least that's how they started out. If I'm
17 wrong, I do apologise.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you.
20 And, yes, this is the transcript, and this is 19845, and it's
21 line 14 --
22 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the OTP should not be
23 allowed to use the transcript. They dropped that witness. The witness
24 was never back for cross-examination. I will find the exact reference
25 where the Prosecutor said that they were dropping this witness and that
Page 47997
1 he would not be recalled for cross-examination. We cannot be allowed to
2 use this transcript.
3 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, with your leave, the Defence for
4 Bruno Stojic adopt the objection put forward in this matter. It is
5 entirely inappropriate and highly prejudicial for the Prosecution to be
6 allowed to cherry-pick evidence in this manner.
7 They had the option of calling a witness, and the evidence could
8 be heard in its entirety, not partial evidence, not the best bits of the
9 evidence, but evidence that has been subjected to cross-examination.
10 That has not been the case, and they must be estopped from relying upon
11 untested, unchallenged evidence which they had the capacity of putting
12 before the Bench in a proper manner that would allow Your Honours to
13 assess it in its totality.
14 Your Honours, for those reasons it is my respectful submission
15 that the objection must be sustained.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to discuss this
17 matter on the Bench. I have my view, but I want to check it out with my
18 colleagues.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After discussing the matter,
21 the Trial Chamber is of the view that to the extent that the witness said
22 in court certain things, even if they were not cross-examined, somebody
23 under oath said something, made a statement. Therefore, the Prosecution
24 is entitled to use such statements, but only in order to assess the
25 credibility of the witness's statement. But the transcript, as such, is
Page 47998
1 not going to be admitted. There it is.
2 Ms. West, do ask your question.
3 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. If I may just add.
4 What I said on the record, I want that to be reflected. The transcript
5 date is the 22nd of January, 2008. The page is 26463. The Prosecutor
6 asserts that they were about to drop this witness altogether, just to
7 make the record complete. Thank you.
8 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, with your leave, very briefly just for
9 the record, I do want it to be recorded that the Defence for Mr. Stojic
10 expresses its disquiet about this development. It is not appropriate, in
11 our respectful submission, for evidence to be assessed through the prism
12 only of testimony of another witness. The proper form is for evidence to
13 be tested by the individual Defence teams representing the individuals in
14 the box. That has been denied us. We have been denied the material
15 possibility to test that evidence. And to only look at -- or only to
16 assess the evidence through the testimony of this witness is, perhaps, a
17 partial, at best, and incomplete scrutiny to important evidence that the
18 Prosecution seeks to get in through the back door now.
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: To avoid all misunderstanding, what Ms. West has
20 the intention to do and what, in the view of the Chamber, it can do is
21 put to test the credibility of this witness here today; but there can be,
22 of course, no question of putting to test the statements that we have in
23 the transcript of the untested witness, and the Chamber will definitely
24 not regard what has been said by the other witness as an element of
25 evidence. It will not be proof. It will either be not admitted at all
Page 47999
1 or only for the purposes of challenging the credibility of the witness.
2 And for that purpose, we have, according to our rules set down on the
3 22nd of November, and we have left open the use of practically any kind
4 of document.
5 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, so be it.
6 The difficulty, of course, that will be for Your Honours to
7 grapple with is: How is it possible to assess the credibility of this
8 witness through the statement whose credibility you are unable to assess?
9 It's putting the cart before the horse. You're seeking to establish --
10 or the Prosecution is seeking to establish the credibility of this
11 witness through evidence whose credibility you cannot properly assess.
12 That's the conundrum that the Defence -- that the Prosecution have to get
13 'round, and it's an issue that Your Honours have to grapple with at the
14 end of the day. And it may be easier, in my respectful submission,
15 simply to have asked the Prosecution to test the credibility of this
16 witness through admissible evidence that has been tested or is capable of
17 being tested, in fairness to the Defence.
18 Your Honours, I'll say no more. I'm grateful.
19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a single
20 sentence.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are wasting time, because I
22 don't even know what Ms. West intends to ask. I don't even know what her
23 question is going to be. So now we are having a discussion. It's
24 intellectually very interesting, but from a legal point of view, from a
25 judicial point of view, I don't even know what she's going to ask. It
Page 48000
1 may be that her question is totally irrelevant, and this will have been a
2 waste of time for nothing. Well, you will have enjoyed this discussion
3 on credibility, that's all.
4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If I may, since we are dealing
5 with the Petkovic Defence witness, I would like to say two things,
6 briefly.
7 Firstly, if the testimony of a witness is never completed, if the
8 Prosecution drops a witness, then that witness's testimony does not
9 exist. A part of his testimony is not evidence. There is no document
10 that we could call Zlatan Buljko's evidence. That's the first sentence.
11 The other sentence is I'm just trying to rationalise and waste precious
12 time. That is why I'm not asking for leave to appeal this.
13 Nevertheless, we believe the Trial Chamber's ruling to be highly
14 contentious, and we believe it would merit an appeal.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Ms. West. Put your
16 question and then we'll see.
17 MS. WEST: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Peric, this is from a witness who was living in Belanovica at
19 the time, and he speaks about the night of 8 May. He said:
20 "That night, on 8th of May, thousands of vehicles from
21 Siroki Brijeg or Listica, as it used to be called, arrived in Mostar, and
22 looking at all of this from my window, I wondered where all of those cars
23 were going. And then there was a restaurant near my building, and I saw
24 that soldiers were gathering together by that restaurant, and they were
25 drinking, and I knew that something was going to happen."
Page 48001
1 Mr. Peric, on the night of 8 May, you were at HVO headquarters;
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you aware of any soldiers or cars gathering in the city that
5 evening?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I'm going to read to you some testimony from Jovan Rakov, and
8 this is from 24th of January, 2007, transcript page 12894, starting
9 at 11. He said:
10 "At about 5.00 a.m.
11 lot of terrible fighting and shooting, and we thought, What's happening?
12 Nobody told us anything. We switched the radio on. There were some
13 proclamations which sort of said that an operation was underway by the
14 HVO and the police forces, and that members of the BH Army were asked to
15 surrender."
16 And he indicates that he's paraphrasing:
17 "Members of the BH Army were asked to surrender, to hand over
18 their weapons, and to put white flags of surrender. And in the meantime,
19 songs -- patriotic songs were being played. You could hear them. And
20 then the wounded began coming in."
21 On that morning, did you turn on the radio?
22 A. No, no. I didn't need to. I heard none of the statements that
23 you've been mentioning, nor, indeed, did I see anything that would have
24 led me to switch on my radio or, indeed, turn on a TV set.
25 Q. Did you see any white flags hanging out of windows?
Page 48002
1 A. No, none.
2 Q. Okay. So it's your testimony, then, that on the night of May 8th
3 and the morning of May 9th, you didn't see any of this, you didn't hear
4 any of this.
5 Would you agree with me, sir, that on that morning, being at HVO
6 headquarters - you were in the center -- you were in the hub of activity
7 for the HVO - would you agree with me that being there and being a
8 specialist in communications, yet not seeing any of this, yet not hearing
9 of this, is at odds with one another?
10 A. What exactly do you mean? Did I hear anything about it on the
11 radio? Is that what you're asking me about? What does this have to do
12 with me being a communications expert? What could I possibly have used
13 my communications expertise for? There was no equipment in that office.
14 How on earth can you know what your investigators, for example, are doing
15 somewhere on the ground, unless they actually call to let you know?
16 There's no way you can know. I'm not --
17 Q. Sorry, excuse me. Mr. Peric, did you go outside? Did you look
18 out the window?
19 A. When the shooting began, is that when you mean, or do you mean
20 during the previous night?
21 Q. I mean on the morning of May 9th, did you actually go out and
22 hear anything, and see any people moving around, and see any white flags
23 coming out of windows? Did you see anything or hear anything like that?
24 A. I heard the sounds of shooting, and I tried to understand where
25 the shooting was coming from. But I saw no sheets hanging from the
Page 48003
1 windows. I saw no people moving about, apart from people running across
2 the road between buildings every now and then on their way to work. I
3 saw a colleague of mine run around and behind a building in which I was
4 working, but there were no sheets hanging from any of the windows out
5 there.
6 MS. WEST: Mr. President, this might be a good time for a break.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going to break for
8 20 minutes.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have the floor.
12 MS. WEST: Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Peric, I just want to clarify a couple things in regard to
14 this path.
15 Earlier, Judge Antonetti asked you a question, on page 31,
16 line 11, and the question was:
17 "I'm a BH Army soldier. I get into a jeep in East Mostar.
18 Can I, using the roads or paths controlled by the BH Army, get to
19 Jablanica?"
20 And your answer was:
21 "For the first few months of the conflict, that is to say, from
22 June, I think, until August, you couldn't go that way in the same jeep.
23 Afterwards, you could, you could go that whole distance in one jeep
24 without having to cross in something else."
25 My question, sir, is: When you were speaking about June and
Page 48004
1 August, are you talking about 1992 or 1993?
2 A. 1993.
3 Q. And then when you said until August, you could go that way, but
4 afterward, you couldn't, what happened in August to change that?
5 A. That's when they had already broken through that part, making a
6 macadamised road surface to link it up with the road going across the
7 village of Ravni, Podgorani, across Livac, Vrapcici, Sutina, to Mostar.
8 Q. And how do you know that?
9 A. Well, I know that -- I know that that part of the road was used.
10 This was a section of the road that was broken through later, and they
11 were better supplied with ammunition, they attempted attacks, and that
12 was much better than from the 30th of June, or that month, roughly, until
13 August.
14 Q. So the source of your information regarding that testimony is not
15 because you were, yourself, were on that road after August of 1993;
16 correct?
17 A. No, I didn't see it myself. I heard about it.
18 Q. And at least from May of 1993 until the beginning of 1994, you,
19 yourself, were never on this particular road that we're talking about?
20 A. On the road where the bypass was made, no, I wasn't ever there
21 during that period.
22 Q. We're going to change subjects, sir, and we're going to talk
23 about the details of May 9th.
24 Now, you indicated that that morning, you attempted to make
25 contact with General Petkovic, and you failed, and then ultimately he
Page 48005
1 came into the office in the early afternoon; correct?
2 A. [No verbal response]
3 Q. And then in the early afternoon, somebody told you to try to find
4 Pasalic on the phone; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, was that -- did General Petkovic ask you, himself, or did
7 someone else ask you?
8 A. Someone else.
9 Q. And you failed in finding Pasalic; correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And did Petkovic or anyone else ever tell you on that day to stop
12 looking for him because they knew where he was?
13 A. When we couldn't reach him, I told the chief that, and he
14 probably passed it on further. So there was no more reason for somebody
15 to tell me to stop calling him. Okay, you can't reach him. That's it,
16 but I accomplished that task.
17 Q. And do I understand that it took you much of the day before you
18 communicated that you could not find him?
19 A. Well, not much of the day. I needed half an hour for me to
20 understand that through my own wire system of communication, I would not
21 be able to reach him.
22 Q. Now, on May 9th, you indicated that several -- many HVO people
23 came in. You also indicated that on the ground floor is HVO Main Staff,
24 but on the first floor is the Defence Department; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 48006
1 Q. And on May 9th, did you see Mr. Stojic in the building?
2 A. I didn't see him, myself, no.
3 Q. Do you know if he was there?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. What about Slobodan Bozic; did you see him?
6 A. I didn't see him either.
7 Q. Do you know if he was there?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Do you know who Vaso Vegar is?
10 A. Would you repeat that, please? I didn't hear. I didn't
11 understand what you asked.
12 Q. Do you know who Veso Vegar is?
13 A. Veso Vegar, not Vaso. Vaso is someone else. Yes, I know who
14 Veso Vegar is.
15 Q. On that day, did you see him?
16 A. I saw him very rarely, generally speaking, while at the
17 Main Staff, and I am not quite sure about that particular day.
18 Q. You had, yesterday, spoken about the training and operations part
19 of the HVO. Am I correct that ONO is the abbreviation for
20 Training and Operations?
21 A. ONO, an abbreviation, Department for Education and Training.
22 Q. Okay. And if we can go to -- back to Veso Vegar, you said you
23 knew who he was. And did you understand that his job regarded public
24 statements or media statements, that that was his role for the HVO?
25 A. I know that he was -- we used to refer to them as "PD,"
Page 48007
1 representative, or chief, or that. But, yes, he was there.
2 Q. Okay. And so he was the assistant head for information and
3 propaganda; correct?
4 A. Possibly.
5 Q.
6 October of 1992 and you were there at least until and through
7 May of 1993. I'd like to show you a document, an HVO Main Staff
8 document. It's 2D00687, and it's going to be in the binder in front of
9 you. 2D00687. You'll have it on the screen in front of you.
10 And this is a document signed by Petkovic on November 24th, 1992
11 so in a period of time when you were already with the Main Staff. Thank
12 you. And I'm just going to read a portion of it. He indicates in it
13 that:
14 "In the past period, from the beginning of the war, there were
15 individuals from HVO that issued statements to the media by doing which
16 they revealed military secrets or in some other way diminished reputation
17 of certain unit, headquarters, or HVO HZ-HB.
18 "So that this wouldn't continue in the future, I command:"
19 And under number 1 he writes:
20 "Nobody from operational zone, headquarters, or formations can
21 give statements to the media without my permission."
22 Mr. Peric, would you agree with me that if anyone in the HVO was
23 giving statements to the media, Petkovic was to be informed about it?
24 A. Reading this order, that's how things should have been. Now,
25 whether they actually were like that in practice, I really don't know.
Page 48008
1 Q. So let's talk about the days preceding May 9th. Were you aware
2 that Petkovic had met with Pasalic on May 4th for negotiations with
3 SpaBat? Were you aware of that?
4 A. I knew in talking to my other colleagues. I didn't take part in
5 any of that; I didn't see them leave or come in. But I heard that they
6 had attended the meeting.
7 Q. All right. And let's talk about -- in those same days, about
8 Bruno Stojic. Can you tell us, in the days preceding May 8th, where --
9 the whereabouts of Bruno Stojic? Do you know?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Okay. Well, you indicated that at least on May 8th, you
12 understood that Petkovic went to -- Petkovic and Stojic went to the
13 North-West Command for a tour; correct?
14 A. I didn't conclude that; I found that written down in the duty
15 log-book. I made no conclusion myself either way.
16 Q. Okay, fair enough. So at 4.00 on May 8th, you looked at the duty
17 log-book, and it indicated that Petkovic and Stojic were in the
18 North-West Command, touring; is that right?
19 A. No. It said that the gentlemen you mentioned would be touring
20 the Tomislavgrad Military District on the 9th of May.
21 Q. On the 9th of May or on the 8th of May?
22 A. The next day, the following day. So if I read "the 8th," it
23 meant the next day two of them would be touring the Military District of
24 Tomislavgrad.
25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] A correction to the transcript.
Page 48009
1 Line 4, when the witness said "if I read it on the 8th," this "8th" was
2 put in inverted commas, as if he was quoting something. But he's not
3 quoting anything; he's saying it referring to himself, "if I read this on
4 the 8th," so without the inverted commas, because otherwise that could
5 change the meaning. So just a normal sentence without the quotation
6 marks.
7 MS. WEST:
8 Q. Mr. Peric, I just want to make sure that we understand exactly
9 what your testimony is, and I'm going to read to you a sentence from the
10 summary of your testimony. You did not write this, but I just want to
11 understand exactly where they were on the 8th and the 9th.
12 The summary says that:
13 "Peric knew that Petkovic had left Mostar a day before," so this
14 would refer to the 8th, "together with the chief of the
15 Defence Department, Bruno Stojic, to visit the Command of the
16 North-West Operative Zone."
17 Is it your testimony that you understood that Stojic and Petkovic
18 were in the North-West Operative Zone on the 8th or on the 9th?
19 A. I think I said that on the table I found a piece of paper on
20 which it said that Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Stojic would, on the 9th of May,
21 be touring the Military District of Tomislavgrad. And next to that it
22 said that I could reach General Petkovic at such and such a number, that
23 I could try and reach him on that number if something was needed. So
24 that was common practice. They would always attach this to a page.
25 So I didn't know that they had left on the 8th of May together,
Page 48010
1 even less that they visited Tomislavgrad on the 8th -- the
2 Military District of Tomislavgrad on the 8th. I didn't know where they
3 were on the 9th of May, in the morning, either, as it said that they
4 toured on the 8th. I don't know what it says on your piece of paper, but
5 I said that they were supposed to go and tour the area on the 9th of May.
6 Q. Sir, you indicated that you had heard, or at least you knew from
7 some source, that Petkovic had been with Pasalic at least on May 4th for
8 SpaBat negotiations; is that right?
9 A. That's what I heard. Now, I don't know whether he was there or
10 not. I didn't see him.
11 Q. Okay. So is it your last information -- or on the morning of
12 May 9th, when you were making efforts to find Pasalic, is the last
13 information you have as his whereabouts, is that information that he was
14 with SpaBat?
15 A. I didn't have that information. Nobody told me.
16 Q. Well, sir, is it your testimony that you didn't try to reach
17 SpaBat that morning?
18 A. No, I didn't. We never tried; at least I didn't. And I didn't
19 try that morning either.
20 Q. All right. Well, we're going to talk about the location of
21 Mr. Pasalic that day, and I'm going to ask you some questions in regard
22 to your ability to communicate regarding it.
23 MS. WEST: Let's look at P1138 -- P11138, excuse me. And I think
24 we have it up on the screen in front of us. And if we can go to the
25 paragraph in English beginning at 6.1, but in the B/C/S it's actually
Page 48011
1 1.2. I don't know why they're different. So in B/C/S, it's
2 paragraph 1.2; English, paragraph 6.1.
3 So this is a SpaBat report --
4 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned
5 friend, but I would like to object to the way in which -- equally, in the
6 same manner that Mr. Scott objected last week; namely, that is that there
7 are no grounds to present this document, because the witness clearly said
8 that he never communicated with SpaBat, nor did he have any knowledge of
9 where Mr. Pasalic was on that particular day.
10 So Mr. Scott objected in the same fashion last week, when the
11 witness was asked about Sovici and Doljani, and Mr. Scott said at the
12 time that the witness hadn't been there and so he doesn't know about
13 that. So he objected in the same fashion that I'm objecting now.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this
15 document was under seal or not. Let me ask the Legal Officer to check
16 this.
17 Yes, obviously it was under seal, so it shouldn't be broadcast.
18 Put your question, and we'll see much.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you.
20 Q. If we go to the area under "Mostar," it says "Other information."
21 "At 1850, a Spanish convoy escorting Brigadier Pasalic and
22 Colonel Filipovic was detained at control point E5. At 2008, an officer
23 of the HVO military police presented himself at the above-mentioned
24 control point, reinforcing it and encouraging his men to adopt an
25 aggressive attitude towards the Spanish convoy. Authorisation to
Page 48012
1 continue was given at 2100 hours, but at 2140 the convoy was again
2 detained at the Vrapcici check-point, where allegations were made of the
3 existence of uncontrolled groups that are mining the roads. HVO sources
4 have informed --" this is the captain of the SpaBat company, "... serving
5 in the city of the possibility of HVO-BiH confrontations tonight."
6 So, sir, let's first look at this check-point. It says that this
7 convoy with Pasalic in it was stopped on May 8th, the night of May 8th,
8 at 2140, and it stopped at the Vrapcici check-point. Sir, the Vrapcici
9 check-point is within the South-East Command area; correct?
10 A. Well, Vrapcici are in the area of the South-East Operations Zone.
11 Q. So I'll take that your answer is, Yes.
12 And my next question is: On the morning of May 9th, you actually
13 called the South-East Operations Zone; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did they give you any information about this convoy being stopped
16 the evening before containing Pasalic and Filipovic?
17 A. No, nothing. They just said that a BH Army attack had been
18 launched along the axis that I've already mentioned, and so I don't have
19 to repeat that.
20 Q. Let's go to P02241, P02241. P02241. And in this, we're going to
21 focus on paragraph 1.1.
22 This is another SpaBat report, and this is the night of May 9th.
23 It was written at 2130 that night. And under 1.1 for check-points, it
24 says that:
25 "On May 9th --" if the Chamber can indulge me, it looks like it
Page 48013
1 says "10.00 a.m.
2 "On May 9th, after painstaking consultations with Mr. Bozic, the
3 Spanish patrol providing escort protection for Pasalic and Filipovic was
4 allowed through the check-point at Vrapcici with the proviso that it must
5 not enter Mostar and must make its way directly to Dracevo."
6 Mr. Peric, can you tell me whether you remember Mr. Bozic calling
7 the Main
8 May 9th? Do you remember any phone call from Mr. Bozic?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. All right. And this information indicates that this convoy was
11 allowed to go through Vrapcici, but with the proviso that it must not
12 enter Mostar, and it had to make its way directly to Dracevo.
13 Sir, would you agree with me that it was possible for the HVO to
14 actually escort this SpaBat convoy through Mostar to ensure that it did
15 not stop?
16 A. Well, they could have escorted it if -- from the positions of
17 that check-point, crossed over to the side under the control of the HVO
18 and passed through Mostar to Medjugorje.
19 Q. Thank you. So you're suggesting that they actually didn't have
20 to even go through ABiH territory; they could have gone through HVO
21 territory to get to Dracevo?
22 A. What I'm saying is that they could have gone through. Now,
23 whether they went through that way, I don't know. Theoretically, they
24 could have gone through that way.
25 Q. Okay. And would you also agree with me that despite all your
Page 48014
1 efforts to find Pasalic, at least at this point, after these painstaking
2 consultations with Bozic, that at least Slobodan Bozic knew of his
3 whereabouts at this time?
4 A. I don't know that.
5 Q. We're going to go to P02235, P02235.
6 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, in the meantime while this document is
7 trying to be found, just for the record -- I was trying not to take any
8 valuable time of this honourable Court, but the entire subject matter,
9 the questions which were put to the witness, is merely speculation.
10 After the witness clearly said that he didn't contact the
11 Spanish Battalion, that he didn't know about where was Bozic, then
12 documents were produced, and everything is, Could that happen? He said,
13 Well, I don't know, maybe, probably. Whatever, it is really speculation.
14 So about 10 minutes, I guess, there is not any result -- any practical
15 result for us. Thank you.
16 MS. WEST: Mr. President, and if I can just comment on that as
17 well.
18 This witness was brought here to --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just continue, just continue.
20 You have eight ears listening to your questions and your answers, and I
21 believe that what Mr. Kovacic just said was totally irrelevant.
22 MS. WEST: P02235.
23 Q. And this is a further description of the events at the
24 check-point when SpaBat escort was stopped, and so this is 1830, 6.30 in
25 the evening, on May 9th. And we're going to go to the part under
Page 48015
1 "Other activities" in the English, it's the last page. I suspect it's
2 the last page in the B/C/S. There, it says:
3 "Transport and escort protection were provided for
4 General Pasalic and General Filipovic from Jablanica to Mostar. The HVO
5 refused this escort entry after a wait of more than seven hours. The
6 persons escorted were taken to Dracevo where they spent the night and
7 where they still remain."
8 Mr. Peric, would you agree with me that in an event like this,
9 where HVO units are detaining a SpaBat APC for seven hours, that in that
10 event it would be very likely that the Main Staff would be notified of
11 it?
12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a very
13 serious objection.
14 This is a topic now that was not covered during the
15 examination-in-chief. I don't question that my learned friend, in
16 conformity with the Rules and your guide-lines, should enter into a new
17 area, but then she should know that leading questions are not allowed
18 there. So I'm not challenging the fact that the Prosecutor can ask about
19 UNPROFOR and Pasalic, but could you remind her that she must not put
20 leading questions.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, in order for us not
22 to waste time, let me remind you that the witness we have here was in
23 charge of communications at the time. He does not know the documents
24 that you are showing to him at the moment, but maybe you could cross with
25 elements that he had in the Communication Centres with the content of
Page 48016
1 this document. But please proceed wisely; otherwise, the Defence lawyers
2 are going to rise to their feet and raise objections.
3 Of course, we understand the problem. We're no fools. We see
4 the documents, we listen, but you are working in a very technical
5 fashion. But remember that this witness was a low-ranking officer at the
6 time in charge of communications. He wasn't even the head of that
7 department.
8 MS. WEST: Can I ask -- Mr. President, I absolutely agree.
9 However, this particular witness, at 4.00 on May 8th, is the duty officer
10 at the Main Staff. And as he's already testified, if things are
11 happening out in the field, the information is coming to him.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then ask the question, what
13 kind of information did he get at 4.00 p.m. It's interesting.
14 MS. WEST:
15 Q. Sir, in regard to the information that I just read to you about
16 this seven hours -- this check-point stop for seven hours, did you
17 receive any information, during the evening of May 8th and the morning of
18 May 9th, about such a stop?
19 A. I didn't receive any information at all.
20 Q. You would agree with me that at least at this point during this
21 stop, that somebody in the HVO knows exactly where Pasalic is located,
22 although it was not you?
23 A. Well, I don't need to agree or disagree. If somebody knew, they
24 probably knew, but I have no knowledge of anybody knowing. So I
25 apologise to the Judge, but may I be allowed to expand and say something
Page 48017
1 at this point?
2 I came here as a witness for the Petkovic Defence. You had all
3 my CV --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, that's not the
5 problem. Ms. West is asking you, since you were on duty at 4.00 p.m. on
6 the 8th of May, what information you received, because things are this
7 way: Last week, it turned out that General Filipovic told us, under
8 oath -- he took an oath, just like you did. He told us that he, together
9 with Mr. Pasalic, were held. Well, I'm saying "held." They were
10 arrested by the SpaBat. This is a major event. The number 1 BH Army man
11 in Mostar was in the hands of SpaBat. And Mr. Filipovic, he was not just
12 anybody. He, too, was held by SpaBat. That's what he said. And
13 Ms. West wants to know whether you were aware of the information. That's
14 as simple as that; that's all. The rest is secondary.
15 I'm asking myself as well how it is that somebody who's on duty
16 at the headquarters at the Main Staff was not informed of such an event,
17 which, in my book, is a very major event. And the Prosecutor is trying
18 to elicit from you whether you knew or not, so answer whether you did or
19 not.
20 Please continue, Ms. West.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know, but I said that
22 already.
23 MS. WEST: P02273, P02273. This is another SpaBat report, and
24 this covers a period of time -- it's from May 9th, 1830,
25 to May 10th, 1830
Page 48018
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, are you sure that it is SpaBat,
2 because here it reads "ECMM."
3 MS. WEST: May we go into private session?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
23 MS. WEST:
24 Q. So the part under Mostar says:
25 "Access routes to the town are closed. Fighting has continued
Page 48019
1 through the day. The HVO controls all access routes to the town."
2 Mr. Peric, are you aware that from May 9th, 1830,
3 to May 10th, 1830
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. We're going to continue on lower in the "Mostar"
6 paragraph. It says:
7 "General Pasalic, commander of the 4th Corps of the BH Army, is
8 in the Spanish Detachment in Dracevo, and some HVO check-points have been
9 put up around the detachment in order to prevent him from leaving. The
10 deputy commander of the Capljina Brigade showed up in the detachment,
11 demanding that General Pasalic be handed over, which the detachment
12 commander refused. The situation remains tense, and the SpaBat has
13 contacted General Petkovic in order to solve the problem created by the
14 presence of General Pasalic in our detachment."
15 So I want to go over this point by point with you, and it would
16 suggest that during the 24-hour period from the 9th to the 10th, starting
17 at 6.30, HVO check-points were put up around the Spanish --
18 SpaBat Detachment in order to prevent Pasalic from leaving. Is this
19 information that the Main Staff received during that period of time?
20 A. I don't know. I didn't see that.
21 Q. "The deputy commander of the Capljina Brigade showed up in the
22 detachment, demanding that Pasalic be handed over, which the detachment
23 commander refused."
24 Now, considering your experience in the HVO, would an order to
25 surround and arrest the commander of the 4th Corps be something that
Page 48020
1 Petkovic would be apprised of?
2 A. All I can tell you is my opinion, but it's difficult to say
3 whether the information came through or not.
4 Q. "The situation remains tense, and the SpaBat has contacted
5 General Petkovic in order to solve the problem created by the presence of
6 General Pasalic in our detachment."
7 Mr. Peric, were you ever informed, on May 9th or May 10th, that
8 the whereabouts of General Pasalic was at the SpaBat Detachment?
9 A. I received no information at all. Quite simply, even if such
10 information had existed, which I'm not aware of, it would have had no way
11 of reaching me. I have no idea why you're asking me to confirm all these
12 things.
13 Q. Well, sir, the reason I'm asking you is you were put on a task,
14 which was to find General Pasalic on May 9th, and it appears from these
15 documents, and I'll ask you whether you would agree with this, that the
16 HVO knows exactly where General Pasalic is on the night of May 8th, the
17 day of May 10th, the day of -- excuse me, the 8th, 9th, and 10th, that
18 the HVO knows exactly where he is, yet you were asked to find him.
19 Can you tell us, what is your opinion of that? Would you agree
20 with me that those two facts, you were asked to find them, yet the HVO
21 knows where he is, why were they inconsistent?
22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
23 Objection, Your Honour.
24 The HVO had no way of knowing anything. Individuals within the
25 HVO, perhaps. If my learned friend wishes to suggest that
Page 48021
1 General Petkovic knew something, she should name him. The HVO comprised
2 thousands of people. The question is, therefore, highly imprecise.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecutor is
4 saying that this SpaBat document, it is a written document that says that
5 the deputy commander of the Capljina Brigade reported and demanded that
6 General Pasalic be handed over.
7 In other words, if this is an authentic document, there's at
8 least one person -- at least one person within the HVO who knows that
9 Pasalic is there, and that person is the deputy commander of the brigade.
10 And there's also General Filipovic, because Filipovic is together with
11 Pasalic. So there are at least two HVO members who know.
12 And, by the way, last week -- well, I did not know that the
13 Prosecutor was going to put these questions, but I have an overall view
14 of the case, and I asked General Filipovic whether he was able to
15 communicate during that time with somebody who was outside. I asked him
16 whether he was able to, and he said he wasn't. And I, therefore,
17 concluded that the information about this, quote/unquote, "detention" was
18 not made outside, but here it seems that somebody in the HVO knew about
19 it. So there's at least one person in the know.
20 And you, did you know or not?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not aware of it.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West.
23 MS. WEST: Sir, I'm going to go to P11139, P11139. You might be
24 able to just get it right there.
25 Q. This is another SpaBat report, and this the next day. So this is
Page 48022
1 another 24-hour report, and this is May 10th at 1830 hours to
2 May 11th at 1830 hours. So it covers that 24-hour period.
3 And we're going to go to page 6 of the English, which is the last
4 paragraph of the "Mostar" section. So the last paragraph of the "Mostar"
5 section. And it says:
6 "General Petkovic --"
7 Excuse me. We're going to go to -- it's not the last paragraph.
8 My apologies. It's in the middle. It says:
9 "General Pasalic, commander of the 4th Corps of the
10 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, continues to be at the Spanish Detachment in
11 Dracevo. The HVO has set up check-points around the Spanish Detachment
12 to prevent him from leaving."
13 So, Mr. Peric, this would tell us that this confinement continued
14 on at least for another day, because this report spans to at least
15 1830 on May 11th. So now we're two days out after you were told to find
16 Pasalic.
17 My question to you is: Is there any information that you have at
18 the HVO Main
19 A. I'm saying this for the umpteenth time. I did not have the
20 information. I didn't know where Pasalic was.
21 Q. Although you didn't know where Pasalic was, do you agree with me
22 that it is clear from these documents that other people in the HVO knew
23 exactly where Pasalic was, and those other people include
24 General Petkovic?
25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, now I really object.
Page 48023
1 This is a fact witness. How he is asked to conclude something?
2 This is prerogative of the Chamber, not of the witness. This is maybe
3 the question for expert, not for a factual witness, definitely. Even if
4 he replies, it doesn't have any value. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness is able to answer
6 any question, and the Prosecutor asked a question and he answered.
7 So, Colonel, did you understand the question put to you by the
8 Prosecutor? Would you answer?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what all these
10 questions are meant for. I'm sure to answer "I don't know" in relation
11 to each and every one.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The purpose, well, that's known
13 to the Prosecutor alone.
14 But please continue, Prosecutor.
15 But, Colonel, in this document we have in front of us -- look at
16 me, please. There's a major event that took place on that day. At 1320,
17 Lieutenant Arturo Munoz Castellanos was wounded, and he died later on.
18 Was this a piece of information made known to you; namely, that a SpaBat
19 officer had been wounded by gun-shot? Were you made aware of this or
20 not?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Even such a relevant
23 information was not known to you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that the gentleman
25 was wounded.
Page 48024
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.
2 Ms. West.
3 MS. WEST: If we can go to P11146, P11146. This is an article.
4 This is a newspaper article dated May 10th, so the day after the attack,
5 and it's written by Veso Vegar.
6 So on the B/C/S, you have the front page of the newspaper, and
7 you have "Attack on Mostar" on the top, and then the article itself is
8 actually on page 11.
9 The front page of the paper says:
10 "Attack on Mostar. Inserted groups of the Army of BiH Sunday
11 morning attacked the HVO, Tihomir Misic Barracks. All the facilities
12 have been defended. Seven members of the HVO died in the clashes.
13 Mate Boban to Konjic Croats, 'Do not be afraid.'"
14 And if we go to the actual article, it's an article written by
15 Veso Vegar, and this May 10th, so published the day after you were
16 looking for Pasalic. It says:
17 "An attempt to take Mostar averted. Inserted groups of the
18 Army of the BiH early Sunday morning attacked the HVO barracks. At the
19 same time, snipers were heard in a number of the city's neighbourhoods,
20 which the HVO Command interpreted as an attempt to take Mostar. All the
21 facilities were defended. Two HVO members died and five were wounded in
22 the clashes."
23 And then the last sentence of the headline is:
24 "Arif Pasalic on the run?"
25 So if we go through the article, and I won't read the whole
Page 48025
1 thing, but I would like to go to the fourth paragraph, starting with the
2 fourth paragraph. It says:
3 "The commander of the HVO South-East Herzegovina Operations Zone,
4 Brigadier Miljenko Lasic, issued an order to the war hospital in Mostar
5 to continue treating all the soldiers and civilians, irrespective of the
6 unit they belonged to or their nationality. The HVO Operations
7 Zone Command issued a statement calling all the members of the
8 Army of BiH units currently staying in apartment buildings and other
9 buildings in the town to surrender their weapons, guaranteeing them full
10 security. Persons who are searching the apartments are warned not to
11 take anything except military equipment and weapons."
12 And it goes on to say that:
13 "The statement indicates," and so this is at the
14 HVO Operations Zone, Lasic, the South-East Command statement, "indicates
15 that one of the main culprits of the current situation in Mostar is the
16 Army of BiH 4th Corps Command, Arif Pasalic, who is trying to flee Mostar
17 with the aid of UNPROFOR. According to the information available at the
18 time, the statement was issued, the convoy with Pasalic in it had already
19 passed the check-point at Zitomislic. The statement says that the attack
20 on the HVO barracks synchronised with the activities of a large number of
21 snipers, which marked a general attack on the town, was only a
22 continuation of many days, long provocative activities of the
23 Army of BiH, which failed to fulfill its obligation to abandon civilian
24 facilities in the town. The Command of the South-East Herzegovina
25 Operations Zone says that the aim of the attack is the taking of Mostar."
Page 48026
1 Q. Mr. Peric, this article was published May 10th, the next morning,
2 after May 9th, and it would appear from looking at this article, would
3 you agree, that at least Veso Vegar and the South-East Herzegovina
4 Operations Zone, they appear to identify the location of Pasalic? Would
5 you agree with that?
6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, excuse me. I have no
7 choice but to object.
8 That is quite different from the previous question. It's quite
9 clear that Mr. Vegar doesn't even know where he is. He only hears here
10 about Pasalic trying to escape from Mostar, which is very different from
11 what the witness was told earlier on.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue, Ms. West.
13 MS. WEST:
14 Q. So, sir, in reading this article, it talks about a statement
15 issued by the South-East Herzegovina Operations Zone, a statement,
16 I think we will agree, that had to have been issued on May 9th or very,
17 very early in the morning on May 10th, indicating that at least Lasic
18 knew the location of Pasalic; is that right? Do you agree with me that
19 that's what it appears to say?
20 A. I cannot agree. I don't know. "Arif Pasalic trying to escape?"
21 That's what I see here. It's a question, it's not a statement, an
22 assertion.
23 Q. All right. But we spoke earlier about media reports coming out
24 of the HVO, and you had indicated -- I showed you a document about --
25 from Petkovic indicating that he wanted approval of all media reports.
Page 48027
1 You would agree with me that if Veso Vegar is going to publish a story on
2 May 10th, the morning after the events -- the major events in Mostar,
3 that General Petkovic is going to know about this report; is that right,
4 sir? Would Petkovic have known about this report?
5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.
6 Mr. Veso Vegar appeared at this trial as a witness. He said
7 clearly that he was the assistant of the representative of the
8 Defence Department. He was in charge of IPD, and he explained to the
9 Court, himself, how he wrote public communiques, how he communicated with
10 the public, and that was his task. He had nothing to do with the
11 Chief of the Main Staff or the Main Staff, itself, nor was he an employee
12 of the Main Staff.
13 Therefore, the order that Mr. Petkovic issued can in no way be in
14 reference to the head -- or, rather, assistant head of the
15 Defence Department, who later became the defence minister. I simply have
16 to react, because my learned friend here is trying to link up two things
17 that are totally unrelated.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, here we have an
19 article signed by Veso Vegar. In this article, as he puts it -- we don't
20 know what information he has, but he says that Pasalic is together with
21 the UNPROFOR. So how is it that he, an HVO member, knows this, whilst
22 you, who were supposed to be on duty in the Communications Centre, you
23 did not know where Pasalic was? That's as simple as that.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer is simple, too. I
25 didn't know because I received no information.
Page 48028
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 Ms. West.
3 MS. WEST:
4 Q. Mr. Peric, it's clear in here that Veso Vegar is suggesting to
5 the readers that Pasalic has tried to flee Mostar. With that being said,
6 would you agree with me that it's possible that Vegar fabricated this
7 story in order to deplete the morale of the Muslims in Mostar?
8 A. I can't agree. I don't know what he had in mind. I don't know
9 what he thought he was going to achieve. "Arif Pasalic trying to
10 escape?" He's asking himself whether that is, in fact, true or not.
11 He's not asserting that Arif Pasalic is on the run.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Witness. You seem not to have looked
13 at the document and listened to Ms. West and to the President carefully.
14 You seem to be stuck with the headlines and the lead. But if you go
15 down, you can read that:
16 "... one of the main culprits for the current situation in Mostar
17 is the Army of BiH 4th Corps's commander, Arif Pasalic, who is trying to
18 flee Mostar with the aid of UNPROFOR."
19 Full stop, no question mark. I am amazed that you always go back
20 to the question mark part and do not answer the question on the basis of
21 this passage.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've never seen the
23 article before. I had no time to read it. I'm being pelted with
24 questions left, right, and center. It's very difficult for me to focus
25 on a single thing. The kind lady reads something back to me. I have to
Page 48029
1 check it. I have to see what it says. Nobody gave me this piece to
2 read. And then I can read it and base my opinion on my own reading, and
3 not on something that others are suggesting without me having seen the
4 piece. That's the only way I can answer these questions. That is why
5 I'm trying to be extra cautious. You know what they say, once burned,
6 twice shy. Perhaps I should be allowed to read the piece myself, and
7 then I can answer. Things being what they are, my answer remains the
8 only logical one. I haven't seen this; hence, I do not know.
9 MS. WEST:
10 Q. Mr. Peric, but you will agree with me that on the morning of the
11 9th, you did have communication with the South-East Command; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this article is based on a statement from the
14 South-East Command, so is it your testimony today that in your talks with
15 the South-East Command on May 9th, you didn't have any information that
16 Mr. Pasalic was trapped in a convoy?
17 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I received no information.
18 Q. Mr. Peric, is it reasonable to believe that the HVO purposely
19 surrounded Pasalic, attempted to arrest him to ensure that he did not get
20 to Mostar, so that it would make the HVO attack of Mostar easier? Is it
21 reasonable to believe that?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. General Petkovic
23 wants to take the floor.
24 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like
25 to ask you to ask the witness a technical question.
Page 48030
1 The witness was on duty between the 8th and the 9th. On the
2 morning of the 9th, he hands over and has nothing to do whatsoever
3 anymore with any official information reaching the Main Staff. Ask him
4 whether that's true. That morning, he handed over to a different person
5 altogether, by which time he was not receiving any information from the
6 operations zone or, indeed, anyone else. Can you just ask the witness
7 that, and that will clarify the whole matter. Why does the witness not
8 remember? Simply because he was no longer in touch with any sort of
9 information.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it is important to
11 know at what time you finished your duty shift, because we all were under
12 the impression that you were still on duty on the 9th of May. And now
13 General Petkovic says, No, you stopped your shift on the 10th of May.
14 So tell us exactly at what time you finished and who relieved
15 you, because otherwise it's a waste of time, because then you would no
16 longer be on duty.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have been trying to say that for
18 hours. I remained on duty until 7.00, or 8.00, actually, that morning.
19 The general's secretary came along, and she took it from there. I was on
20 my way back, as I said in no uncertain terms, to my office to go on
21 performing the tasks that I was given on that day. I'm talking about the
22 moment when the situation was more or less normal still.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 So he was no longer on duty at the Main Staff because the
25 secretary had arrived, she arrived around 7.00 or 8.00, and he returned
Page 48031
1 to his office. And so I confess that I'd forgotten about this so far.
2 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Mr. Peric, I'm going to ask you some questions about Mount Hum
4 You were asked by General Praljak earlier today some questions about it,
5 and he, in the transcript, said:
6 "You were in Mostar. After the two sides separated in Mostar,
7 could you, from any of the HVO positions, see the Neretva banks
8 controlled by the BiH Army from any point?"
9 And you asked:
10 "Do you mean Mostar or the broader region around Mostar."
11 And he clarified, and he said:
12 "Only that part of Mostar that was under the supervision and
13 control of the BH Army, not what we can see from Hum Hill to the left and
14 the right."
15 And then you said you couldn't see the Neretva River
16 embankment.
17 So I want to talk to you about Mount Hum, and obviously you're
18 familiar with it. The Trial Chamber has heard considerable evidence
19 regarding it and much to do about the shelling of the old bridge, but I
20 don't want to talk to you about that. I want to talk to you about it in
21 a general, strategic way.
22 Now, based on your experience as a military man and somebody who
23 lived in this region, would you agree with me that Mount Hum
24 highest point in the vicinity of the city?
25 A. There are many higher points.
Page 48032
1 Q. Nonetheless, would you agree from Hum a dominance of this city
2 and the valley below it could be established, that it was an important
3 military strategic point?
4 A. In any case, it was an important defence point. Now, that it
5 dominated the city, that that was that important, I'm not quite sure
6 about that. Perhaps for the southern part of the town. But for the
7 north and the other parts, it did not have any great value as a position.
8 Q. You just clarified and you said that it was important for the
9 defence of the city. But would you not agree with me that it would also
10 be important for an attack on the city?
11 A. No, this -- for an attack on the city, it wasn't important in
12 terms of domination. If I were to launch an attack on the city, I
13 wouldn't rely on Hum. So it wasn't of major importance as a dominant
14 point, having dominance over the city.
15 Q. Okay. I think others would disagree with you in regard to that,
16 but I'm -- and I'm going to show you a video, which is P06365. It's
17 going to be on the -- it's going to be on the screen, P06365. And this
18 is the Jeremy Bowen video. It's been admitted into evidence. This video
19 was shot in September, and we're just focusing right now on an interview
20 with General Pasalic. You can follow along. The interpreters will
21 interpret. You also have the transcript.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: September. Which year, please?
23 MS. WEST: Thank you. September 1993.
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
25 MS. WEST: Thank you.
Page 48033
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I think we just have a problem. I
3 don't have sound. Does the Chamber have sound? No.
4 Q. In your binder as well, there's a transcript of this interview
5 with Pasalic, and I'm going to read that to you. He's being interviewed
6 from -- by Jeremy Bowen. And Bowen says:
7 "Away from the fiercest fighting, the Bosnian Army also controls
8 the outlying villages to the north and south. General Pasalic, the
9 regional commander, took us to see them. He's a professional soldier.
10 He was an officer in the JNA, the old Yugoslav Army. Shells came in from
11 the Croat side occasionally, but it was a quiet day and the Bosnian
12 positions were secure."
13 This is still Bowen speaking:
14 "Even Mostar itself, five miles away, was fairly calm. The
15 general, though, was not a happy man. He should have been in 30 hours of
16 intense combat. His men battled their way --"
17 MR. KOVACIC: Unfortunately, you didn't give a number of the
18 document -- transcript in the binder, and I see that witness is trying to
19 looking at the monitor where is something entirely else. So it will be
20 confusion.
21 MS. WEST: Yes, the --
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The document number was given. It is P06365.
23 MR. KOVACIC: It may be well so --
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's on the record also.
25 MR. KOVACIC: Okay, Your Honour. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's
Page 48034
1 obvious that the witness does not know that number.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It happens to all of us, Mr. Kovacic. I'm not
3 immune.
4 MS. WEST: So, again, it's 06365, 06365. P06365. And this is
5 the transcript of the video, and it's now actually on the screen. And
6 perhaps the best way would be for me to slowly continue to read it, and
7 we'll have the translations.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could we have the page on
9 the transcript, please?
10 MS. WEST: Yes. It's page 23, going in to page 24. And so I'll
11 just -- I will read it again.
12 Mr. Peric, I think maybe the best thing is for you to actually
13 look at the screen. Okay.
14 So we'll continue on where Bowen says:
15 "Even Mostar itself, five miles away, was fairly calm. The
16 general, though, was not a happy man. He should have been. In 30 years
17 of intense combat, his men battled their way through a Croat-controlled
18 suburb and up the mountain called Hum which dominates Mostar. It was
19 probably their single most significant victory of the war ."
20 And the next page, this is with Pasalic speaking, he says:
21 "That mountain is the key. Whether you are attacking or
22 defending, whoever wants to conquer Mostar must take control of the
23 mountain, and whoever defends Mostar must keep control of the mountain
24 because it dominates the city and the whole of the valley."
25 Q. Mr. Peric, now hearing Mr. Pasalic's full opinion on Mount Hum
Page 48035
1 can you tell me whether you agree with it?
2 A. Well, no, I don't think I could agree with everything that
3 Mr. Pasalic said. But it becomes a little clearer, why he launched so
4 many attacks on Hum with the object of gaining control of it. He needed
5 to control it.
6 Q. And would you agree -- would you also -- well, would you agree
7 with me that in the beginning of May 1993, before May 9th and on May 9th
8 and after May 9th, the HVO was in control of Mount Hum
9 A. I can agree that it had the possibility of gaining that control.
10 Now, whether they were up there at those positions, I don't know.
11 Q. I'd like to go to the testimony of Seid Smajkic. This is
12 testimony in this case from May 24th, 2006
13 It's line 4, and he says -- he's talking about May 9th. The question is:
14 "Where were you on May 9th?"
15 His answer, line 6:
16 "I was in home, in my house on the right bank, right next to the
17 demarcation line which was established at the time. In the early-morning
18 hours, at dawn, there was fierce artillery fire, and attempts were made
19 to expel the Muslim population and to expel people from their houses.
20 People were expelled outside, they were in their pyjamas or nightgowns,
21 and they were driven off in various directions. Since my house is
22 located at the demarcation line, I saw right next to my house, with my
23 very own eyes, thousands of people who have been expelled. They had been
24 woken up, and they were expelled. They left in tears, with their
25 children, and they passed by my house and headed east. And there was
Page 48036
1 quite a large group that headed off in that direction. I'll never forget
2 that event. There was crying, groaning, people were beside themselves.
3 And while they were leaving, fire was opened on them from Hum and from
4 other directions so that they would continue moving out."
5 Mr. Peric, isn't it true that on May 9th, HVO had control of
6 Mount Hum
7 A. I don't know whether he did have control, but the possibility of
8 gaining control existed.
9 Q. Sir, I now want to talk to you about check-points and access to
10 Mostar.
11 MS. WEST: If we can go to P02227.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a follow-up
13 question.
14 I'm not going to ask for the video to be played again. But you
15 were living in Mostar, at least you worked in Mostar, so I would like to
16 know your opinion regarding an assessment made by this reporter,
17 Jeremy Bowen. This is what he says:
18 "Mostar is a city that is the most destroyed city in the former
19 Yugoslavia
20 Vukovar. This is a fierce battle, and it will continue for a long time."
21 For those who might be interested, this is 35 minutes and
22 2 seconds into the tape. What's your take on this?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that's a journalist
24 professionally earning his money, writing to earn his money, writing
25 &nbs